Big birds and the BRS debate.

[facthunter]

Stay in ground effect till you have your stall margin, or stay on the ground till you get the extra speed will reduce the drag even further, if you don't put the nose up prematurely, like you would on a soft field take off.  Nev

[RFguy]

I was thinking some more of this Nev

Say.....

HOT, WINDY, HEAVY

 

that's a situation where airspeed is your friend and likely to better gain airspeed straight and level and gradually reduce flap until T.O.S.S  for the situation is reached before climbing. comment ?
 

 

[facthunter]

IF you have to "milk" the flap up so be it. With most planes Thruster/Drifter etc excepted, a slightly higher climb speed helps everything including cooling. Never forget the benefit(s) of Ground effect but it includes NO trees.  or rising ground.  Nev.

[RFguy]

I think the point I am trying to make is
 - the taught - " FULL POWER, FLY S&L, STOW FLAP, TRIM , ,  THEN CLIMB"

---  sequence needs to have the STOW FLAP   step NUANCED and discussed by the instructor.

If a pilot just dumps all the flap on rote  and the aircraft is barely flying - relying on ground effect  to be flying,  that will surely result in a LOC accident,. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by RFguy

[facthunter]

As happened to A British Airways TRIDENT. (Where you can be 50 Knots too slow easily)  In critical situations never change configuration with out thinking about the consequences. IF it's NOT performing check full power and configuration or if you aren't sure call a halt to the deal before V1 and safely stop the plane.   Nev

[RFguy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_European_Airways_Flight_548
 

wow that  is quite a read. golly gosh !!!!
 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

If a pilot just dumps all the flap on rote  and the aircraft is barely flying - relying on ground effect  to be flying,  that will surely result in a LOC accident,. 

Yes, it's that sink immediately following the sudden config shift that's the issue (which Cherokees with their simple handle allow but electro-flapped Cessna's don't, so much). As I understand it, the whole lift/drag, AoA/inertia situation takes time to sort itself out; seconds in which you lose lift on the swings before you shed drag on the roundabout.

 

Maybe "dumping" is the mirror image of "popping" the flaps which the STOL mob use to steal a quick lift bonus without paying the drag penalty for the entire take-off run.  Also, I remember once reading a story of an aviator who found himself in a pickle on climb out; staring down a church steeple dead ahead, which, it seemed, he wasn't going to clear.  With his back already against the power curve, he knew his wings had no more to give - including, I guess, any kind of turn away.  Anyway, according to my memory of the tale, he ended up saving the day by resorting to some flap popping. At the very last moment he dropped a stage which instantly bunted his path just overhead the pointy bit.  After that, of course, he'd plenty of time to pay off his drag penalty in open air with cleaned up wings. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Garfly

[facthunter]

You might jump a fence, but it's a "Fly  NOW, Pay later" in the energy equation. In some circumstances stall recovery INCLUDES the option of flap extension rather than certain stall.  Nev

[Garfly]

12 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You might jump a fence, but it's a "Fly  NOW, Pay later" in the energy equation.

EDIT:  Yeah, exactly, and in the church-steeple war-story the pay day loan scheme worked out very well for our intrepid borrower,

Edited June 12, 2023 by Garfly

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, RFguy said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_European_Airways_Flight_548
 

wow that  is quite a read. golly gosh !!!!
 

Yes, a fascinating read.  And here's a video about it:

 

 

[RFguy]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

You might jump a fence, but it's a "Fly  NOW, Pay later" in the energy equation. In some circumstances stall recovery INCLUDES the option of flap extension rather than certain stall.  Nev

That's really good point, and a real energy exchange equation that, if near the ground, you'd need to evaluate in milliseconds.
IE nose down, get airspeed up, fly out of stall (altitude loss?) , or nose down (as required), instantaneous flap out , exchange some airspeed to operate 6 to 8 knots slower, perhaps ends up with less altitude lost? mmmmm sounds possible but critical... I will have to try this in the simulator...

[kgwilson]

Remember in this situation the young pilot was reportedly at 100 feet and at 78 knots with 25 deg of flap so getting rid of the flap straight away at full power would be the best option. Just put the nose down a bit and fly away. Plenty of speed and altitude & now much less drag. I only flew a 140 twice but from comments here power does not seem to be a major problem but with added drag & high attitude there would be a lot less grunt available than in my old Archer 2.

[Garfly]

Yes, maybe he was going around because he felt his approach was a bit hot.

But then his rudder failed, just when he needed it most.  If it hadn't, everything would have been fine and dandy.

 

So for me, this one's firmly in the 'mechanical failure' column, sub-section: hidden metal fatigue. 

In some ways, though, it's the above-mentioned Challenger fatal that hits closer to home.

A reminder that as a homebuilt owner/operator it's down to me to keep on top of the issue - hidden or not.

(Mechanically challenged or not  ;- )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Garfly

[RFguy]

I made and printed this little placard for the Archer1. It lives on the back of the checklist A5 card. 
And knowing  and speaking out the TO and landing weight ..and the TOSS is part of the start checklist.
...could  miniaturize it and find a spot on the instrument panel I guess

Edited June 12, 2023 by RFguy

[kgwilson]

So the rudder failed, that is an inconvenience but the aircraft is still fully controllable. All of a sudden there is no resistance on the pedals so the effect is stuff all on the ability of the aircraft to continue to fly albeit a bit out of balance depending on throttle and attitude. Mentally though it has likely thrown a curve ball in to the pilots brain and things start to get out of control from there.

[Garfly]

10 hours ago, kgwilson said:

So the rudder failed, that is an inconvenience but the aircraft is still fully controllable. All of a sudden there is no resistance on the pedals so the effect is stuff all on the ability of the aircraft to continue to fly albeit a bit out of balance depending on throttle and attitude. Mentally though it has likely thrown a curve ball in to the pilots brain and things start to get out of control from there.

 

Yes, we can all agree on the Human Factors effect.  But when it comes to what coulda, shoulda, mighta been done, absent the startle, I'm still with 'Fred Flintstone' (in the YT Comments):  "Without the rudder to counteract the immediate left yaw from applying full power I am guessing this happened very fast. He did not know he lost the rudder but taking out the power and letting the plane go straight would have probably kept him on the airport but maybe not the runway."  

 

But that's all conjecture upon conjecture - all apart from the weld failure, that is.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Garfly

[facthunter]

Like ALWAYS, you'd have to BE THERE to know but it does get back to TRAINING. It's plainly there. Controls EFFECT and FURTHER  EFFECT. It's very early in the syllabus. Planes don't run on rails.  Nev

[Garfly]

Talking about when SYLLABUS meets HUMAN FACTORS:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv0NNjQOCkI