Is there still an ultralight movement?

[Student Pilot]

Looking at the QNH question (And young Tonys reply) on another thread has got me to thinking, is there any of the original passion around about with minimum flying? Why do (Seems like) most new machines have to have full IFR panels and auto pilots? RAA machinery shouldn't be going that near cloud let alone in it. The minimum worry/costs/rules and unecessary equipment has gone being replaced by every option and costing well over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!

 

Apart from a few strongholds has the minimum movement gone swallowed up by new rules, new aircraft, new breed of pilot? People say how much cheaper RAA flying is but for the cost difference between a new $140,000 so called ultralight and an old 172 with a few engine hours to run you could run the 172 for 3 lifetimes. The medical question is the only argument I can see that would go in the RAA favour. Have I rattled a few cages?

 

 

[robinsm]

Still plenty of "basic" ultralights (thrusters, xairs, drifters, gazelles etc) out there. Not all of us need or want $130000 plus machines that do 140 plus knots. My 582 gets serviced regularly by me. Costs about what a second car does to run. If you enjoy just flying then there is plenty of opportunity without going the GA way. Jeez, the only IFR I get is I Follow Roads when I get lost. Consider my cage rattled.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

For sure, this subject has been covered before, but apart from wanting my replica fighter, I would really like to see some new Ultralights getting off the ground. Don't the yanks have a basic category where no license is required? Not that I'm promoting such a case, but that certainly keeps the Ultralight going over there. New and individual designs, experimentation and the gradual improvement in basic aircraft. Sure, they have their share of crashes, but hey, where would we be if we, or more to the point,our ancestors, said 'I can't do that, I might get hurt'

 

Yea, bring it on, rag and tube, wood and clue. The more the merrier. Lets stop being wimps with a need for speed.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

The original ultralight movement is still there alive and strong and presumably always will be. There will always be a constant supply of people who want to fly simply and cheaply for the pure sake of flying – or are unable to afford anything else. That is why AUF was formed and it was most successful with those basic types.

 

 

Whether those people are members of RAAus in the future remains to be seen. It is still very practical to fly illegally (especially from your own property) due to the practicality of policing. If you keep your nose clean then you are unlikely to disturb anyone and you can maintain and fix these simple aircraft very easily with little support needed.

 

 

While a main promotional attitude continues to be promoted that the traditional types are dinosaurs which the movement has to (and is) rapidly evolving away from; when that attitude results in increasing regulation, rules and ever more complex training requirements; and while costs increase to sustain a booming membership – then it is not surprising if members take a lower profile and just do their own thing.

 

 

A marked change is certainly apparent to me via my TOSG activities. Several years ago I was having considerable success persuading owners to get their machines registered and legal, even get some people to at last obtain their pilot certificates.

 

 

That has increasingly turned around and I come across more and more aircraft with lapsed regos. In the past couple of months I have been involved with three newly bought, cheap, second hand aircraft whose pilots have not the slightest intention of joining RAAus or anyone else -they see no benefit or need to – although they sought the technical advice of TOSG.! They either have their own suitably sized properties they can fly from or have a mate who does!

 

 

The other side to that coin is a specific, totally illegal Thruster that is a death trap. Unless I can secure it and get it out of circulation then there is a steadily growing illegal second hand market that will snap it up.

 

 

But ultimately the low end will die and will do so via lack of supply. We will have a re-run of what promoted the HORSCOTTS enquiry back in the mid 1980s, and for the same reasons – we are not going to have suitable trainers for high drag/low inertia types, plus the second hand 95.10s will be cheap enough to make it worth ‘giving it a go’ by yourself.

 

 

The supply of new Thruster & Drifter types has dried up and there is very little, if anything practical on the new market. Schools cannot buy this class of trainer even if they wanted to, and any potential student market is dazzled by the ‘new Rec Flying image’ and has to be in something ‘modern’.

 

 

This is one reason I am putting effort into assisting with the return of the Vision 600 factory as there is already certainly a market for the machine.

 

 

As I have repeatedly said in the past – I care not if there are plastic fantastics in RAAus but the owners should be careful! If we return to the crash rate of the early ‘80s being spread through the media then there will be a second HORSCOTTS and we all may find ourselves under CASA’s wing in a Sports Flying annex to GA. What price your freedoms and low costs then?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Dear Student Pilot'

 

all three of us are doing fine

 

thank you for your interest

 

Ozzie

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Dear Student Pilot'all three of us are doing fine

thank you for your interest

 

Ozzie

No problems Ozzie, any time , let me know if I can be of help with anything else

 

 

[icebob]

Hi,

 

Well i must agree with Tony about the practicality of policing flying, I for one did 5 years of flying like that out of Nowra from 1972 to 1977, then for 2 years joined AUF.

 

I know of a couple of people who fly on their farms/stations and have done so for years safely and without major issues that have no intention of joining any organization that they could see no actual benefit from.

 

I for one would be interested in the 600 if it came on line or a good secondhand drifter or the like.

 

That end of the spectrum is dying like Tony said, a great shame, even getting support for aircraft like the drifter or even taking the step up one to tiny teenies and Volksplanes and the like there is very little support outside the group of actual flyer's and builders.

 

These group of aircraft with limited range and HP appear to be the forlorner forgotten ones in favor of the slick machine in plastic, while i do enjoy a flight in the plastic aircraft i do love the open cockpit and the sting of bugs and that feeling of freedom at one with the elements more.

 

So are by maybe unintentional neglect these small groups being driven away or underground to "do thair own thing" or in a few cases I know of going to trikes?

 

Bob.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Ozzie :thumb_up: Do I make it 4?

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Adam,

 

Make it 4.

 

I strated flying in 1966 and from then to now have only had one major issue early 2008.

 

My first home built(VP-1) had up until March 2008, 3910.5 airframe hours without accident, engine failure or getting the pilot lost.

 

It is a shame that organisations sometimes forget those on the fringes and those pilots resorting to just flying a farm somewhere and not getting to meet the many good and honest pilots that are around in our sport.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest Baphomet]

The movement is still alive and well, we just don't draw attention to ourselves. At the strip where I have my Bantam hangered, there are three drifters and a single seat metal one-off. I do wonder though if there is any point in continuing with the RAA as they appear to offer little/no benefit to those of us flying rag and tube. Hell, didn't even get the latest magazine.

 

 

[icebob]

Great to hear from you Baphomet:thumb_up:.

 

Although I have only been "officially" with RAA a very short time I am seeing holes and other issues.

 

I got a student license so I could put my foot into the water so to speak. It is true i have meet a bunch of really nice guys and gals but when you start talking about the every day things that we as low and slow observe, sometimes you loose them.

 

Coming in to the fold so to speak how can you justify/prove your flying hours or flight experience to RAA if you are not registered with any recognized organization?:confused:

 

Sure at an authorized flying school your skills show through but you still start with a nil hours log book and your assessments can get colored by your methods of flying, what was good for the drifter or like is not good in a Jab!

 

Bob.

 

 

[farri]

The original ultralight movement is still there alive and strong and presumably always will be. There will always be a constant supply of people who want to fly simply and cheaply for the pure sake of flying – or are unable to afford anything else. That is why AUF was formed and it was most successful with those basic types.

Hi Tony,

 

You are right on target with this post.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Bob – I would like to expand on your comments about log books a little.

 

 

A log book records the flying that a pilot has personally done and is a statement of experience that has happened and that nobody can take from you. You do not have to ‘prove’ this to anybody. You may have to justify it by demonstrating under test that you can cut the mustard but you are going to have to do that anyway.

 

 

I therefore disagree that on entering RAAus (or anywhere else) that you start off with a nil hours log book. You certainly have to fly a minimum number of hours with an approved FTF as per the Ops Manual – but it is the FTF’s responsibility to record that on their school documentation – you just carry on logging the flying in your current log book.

 

 

Even a high time pilot cannot escape this (other than using dispensations that be available eg minium of 5 hrs ultralight experience for a PPL holder, HGFA Trike endorsement and flying being recognised by RAAus etc).

 

 

Being able to demonstrate your history is also of assistance to both yourself and your new instructor. It is a bit frustrating if a junior instructor decides that you really should have to start with effects of controls when you have several thousand hours!

 

I have had a number of quite experienced non-certificate holders through my hands who taught themselves and can fly really well. Most of my work with them was therefore mainly on lifting their theory and doing a bit of patching on procedures.

 

 

When all is said and done – if you can rock up and pass a GFPT then the majority of the minimum hours will be flown as PIC which is just adding to your command time – because it is command time if you are solo whether you have your certificate yet or not.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Tony,

 

Thanks for your reply maybe I did not explain myself well, sorry, yes i was quite prepared to demonstrate my skills to an instructor and yes I did get a junior instructor at the school i went to first who just wanted to put me thought as though i was a brand new pilot without letting me demonstrate my skills, very disappointing, i approached the CFI of that school and asked him to test me, he was reluctant, i guess to "protect" his instructor. I set out a Nav for four airstrips a total of 4 hours and 40 minutes, set it all up like i was actually going to do it, all the right paperwork. Talked about theory of flight a bit, just to show i was not a dummy but he would not listen, even showed him my current log book, not interested. I have switched to another school in a more country position where i am treated with genuine respect and who offered me the opportunity to show my skills. I have no objection at doing hours to qualify but my objection is if it is good enough sighting my log book and showing my flight skills for one school why is it not good enough for the other?

 

the first school had me confused with the validity of my log book, the instructor kept saying as i had now association with a authorized association my flight time did not count, I questioned that as some flight time is with the R.A.N, he said that was OK but all the rest was not. your response doubly confirms he was wrong, so thanks for that, this is one school i will not be going back to.

 

I have visited two schools that I have shown my skills to and will take me on, so it is a conflict for me which one i go to - bugger!

 

 

[facthunter]

Validity of log books.

 

Some flying schools (perhaps all) used to have the CFI certify "times correct with (organisation)" ,and my last long term aviation employer used to stamp and sign the entries every 3 months.

 

There are a lot of "faked" log book entries out there in the BIG world, and some have gained employment in airlines without a genuine licence even , so a hard line COULD be taken.

 

I would really like my log books as my PERSONAL record, and in my naivety as a youth, only entered flying that was done with an instructor, so consequently, I now regard my records as incomplete. That is NOW.

 

With the possibility that some future employer may have wanted to scrutinize the said log books, I would rather adopt the conservative approach and not ever have anyone raise the possibility that there may be erroneous entries, IF you are looking for a job.

 

( Just a couple of views ).

 

In our environment, what really matters is if you can "cut the mustard" surely. Nev..

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Facehunter,

 

Yes I too agree there are a lot of fakes out there, had an issue with that with someone with fake TA FE/Uni certificates.

 

I am not looking for employment and i did make that clear, however one of the schools were happy with my documentation did say if i was intrested in becoming an instructor they would take me on(have current cert 4 in workplace traiing and i teach firstaid to the public now).

 

However my second log book on the inside cover had my expired PPL(2001) and the logbook was stamped by a school that is still in operation today so at least 50% of my hours in that book can be verified, the initial school would not even entertain them or me getting a letter sent to them from the "old" school. I even provided receipts for aircraft hire as i keep all that sort of thing - yes I am a hoarder:confused:. none of that documented evidence was taken into account by the first school.

 

I got in the habit of entering everything in the log book, I guess something drilled into us from the Navy, even my ditching drill sessions in the swimming pool(:yuk:) and just carried on from there, i also have an exercise book(s) where i detail the date/time,conditions on the day, the flight plan and anything else of intrest, great reading 10-20 years down the track. My only regret is not taking photos too.

 

Bob.

 

 

[farri]

A log book records the flying that a pilot has personally done and is a statement of experience that has happened and that nobody can take from you. You do not have to ‘prove’ this to anybody. You may have to justify it by demonstrating under test that you can cut the mustard but you are going to have to do that anyway.

Ok, so I`m retired from instructing,but.

 

When I was instructing I was presented with this situation on more than one occasion and the only thing that mattered to me was how well the guy could fly the aircraft not what was in their log book.

 

Once I`d taken them for a fly and assessed what they could and couldn`t do I would then know what to work on most.

 

A log book,even if recorded honestly,is only a record of flights and exercises carried out in the past,it is not a true indication of current ability.

 

Frank.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Farri,

 

yes you are correct but what confused me was the attitude of the instructors and CFI at that first school to my log book and would not take me up so i could prove myself. Offered me an aircraft and instructor for the day to get my PPL back though?????

 

They were more interested in selling me a "package" to get my full license(PPL & CPL), it was almost like the used car salesman steriotype, I walked away.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Yenn]

There are schools and there are schools. Some should never be training anyone

 

I let my PPL lapse for a few years and then went to renew it. The instructor stuffed me around, doing many circuits, than I did a nav for him, he tried to tell me I was lost until I told him I was sure it was Banana beneath me because that was my uncle Freds house I could see. I told the CFI what i thought of the instructor and she sacked him. New instructor and I got my review done in half an hour.

 

Some of them think the general public is a mlking cow.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Ian,

 

yes i found that too.

 

Although i have been with RAA a very short time and this may be a loaded question?

 

What type of quality control is in place to curb the schools who are just in it for the cash or wander away from the prescribed syllabus?

 

I have no objection to a school making some sort of profit, we all need to do that but frankly some schools look like they are just in it totally for the cash, I could be wrong and they are just slick.. but??????

 

Bob.

 

 

[farri]

Bob,

 

I agree ,there are schools who are just in it for the money but realisticly how could any quality control determine this and even then who would determine how much is too much.

 

I once had a husband and wife,in their mid fifties, come here from Tasmania, wanting to do some flying in my Drifter,Both their log books showed over 60 hours to go solo,to me this said more about the school and the instructor that they had been to than it did about them.

 

I was not one of those schools,I was about teching people to fly and trying to keep the Ultralight movement going,not making money,All I can realy say is that everyone do their research before picking a school and one of the best ways is to try and find a present or past student who will give an honest opinion.

 

And is there still an Ultralight movement?,Well I continue to fly my WB Drifter and there`s an XAir and a Kitfox housed on my property that fly regularly and up the road we have another Drifter and the pilot is 79 YO and another guy who has a property and flies from there has 2 Trikes, one is his and the other is his brother and sister inlaws, husband and wife are both trike pilots and she`s an air hostess for Quantas.

 

Regards,

 

Frank.

 

 

[hihosland]

Farri did say

 

"I was not one of those schools,I was about teaching people to fly,not making money,All I can realy say is that everyone do their research before picking a school and one of the best ways is to try and find a present or past student who will give an honest opinion."

 

The same situation applies in almost any business that you can think of, especially those where as a general rule the customer is ill prepared from common life experience to make any sort of judgment.

 

It is in no way confined to, nor a common attribute of flying schools.

 

Davidh

 

 

[icebob]

Hi everyone,

 

I just thought there was a method of checking the schools qualifications and renewals that sort of thing as well as a "recommended price per hour". Like say getting your car repaired you get a quote of x$ per hour labor. I understand there is a large selection of aircraft to train in but there must be a start point for pricing? Or is it if the price is too high no/few students sort of thing?

 

I was surprised traveling around the country the variations in pricing for flight instruction from as low as $89 to $207 per hour. There appears to be no uniformity with common training aircraft pricing, surely one brand of aircraft costs reasonably close to the same amount per hour to run regardless of your location in Australia.

 

Bob.

 

 

[farri]

Hi everyone,I just thought there was a method of checking the schools qualifications and renewals that sort of thing as well as a "recommended price per hour".

Bob.

Bob,

 

All the RAA schools must qualify to RAA standards and be approved by the RAA but it would wrong for the RAA or anyone else to dictate or regulate the price structure.

 

As the RAA must control all the schools, I`m sure there is critera that the they could use to give a rating to the schools, however, it would require more work and does anyone want more work and would the schools accept a rating system.

 

Regards,

 

Frank.

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Farri,

 

Thanks for that, it clears up a few things for me. The only other thing i was interested in is quite a few schools do not even have a business plan, maybe I am being extra critical but that sort of thing is what i do as well as teach to the general public and likewise maybe i am critical of some methods of instruction by some instructors.

 

Instructors for the organization(national) i work for do a two yearly face to face "workshop" day to verify competency and update on techniques and new equipment.

 

Bob.