Yenn Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Has anyone seen the latest Air Safety magazine. They give a report of the crash of an R160 Robin. The pilot was conducting a practice forced landing and when he applied power at 500', the engine died, probably due to carby ice. The aircraft was destroyed, but luckily pilot and passenger only had minor injuries. Not very effective training I would say. Another from the same issue. A twinstar on approach had an engine failure and landed short of the strip. Serious injuries and substantial damage. Whatever happened to the old idea of being aable to glide in from the circuit. Do we do enough training and if so is that training effective? The above cases are of course GA incidents not RAAus. When did you last do a practice forced landing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This one is for (well mostly) you Merv, You say if you roll the aileron into the direction of the spin this will slow/stop the spin, is this because the wing that is stalled (and when a wing is stalled) the effect of controls on the stalled surface acts in reverse ? hence stopping/slowing the rate of roll ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Whatever happened to the old idea of being aable to glide in from the circuit. Good question Ian and based on recent experiences in a variety of locations, it's either not being taught, being ignored or the glide ratio of many aircraft is far greater than I remember. The circuit "size" being flown by many I've seen would allow no ability to reach the field in the event of an engine failure. I personally operate a circuit size "by the book" (the "book" in this case is the RAAF CT4 flight manual) with the runway centreline running through the roundel on the wing. In the CT4 at 1000' AGL this puts me roughly 1nm laterally from the runway - a distance I was taught / advised when I started my training in a Gazelle and have maintained ever since in everything I've flown as it almost assure me of making the field in the event of an engine failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yenn, If the Robin selected power and got none after a long poweroff descent, it's possibly because he didn't think to use carb heat, not because he was conducting an unsafe manouver at the time. Kudo's to him for even practising a power off approach in the first place. It is unfortunate it didn't go well, and he didn't get to use his plan B. Gibbo, in my experience the prop doesn't add significently to the overall drag in the stopped position, although it does add some. Depending on the type and 'slickness' of you'r particular aircraft, you'r either coming down 'in the region of say 200 to 400 feet per min, or in the more draggy machines possibly more than that. Theoretically if you lost power at 600 ft and you took care of things right away, it could be around a minute or more before you could be flaring for touchdown. That's a fair time to generally get sorted. If say you are only at 200 ft you'd better get sorted pretty quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Adrian, not sure i understand the question, but yea, the aileron drag is more significant on the downgoing aileron, so more drag on the down going aileron causes the rotation to slow, but, held to long and the spin direction will reverse. Thats how strong aileron drag is on the other side of the Cl max curve..On the downside of the curve drag is king, ie in a stall/ spin. The deeper into the stall you go, ie AofA increasing further we go the drag increases phenomonoly. And the aileron drag is more then enough to stop rotation ( on some types) and reverse the spin. I'll re-empasize, to keep the flames off me, this is not a recovery technique. Its an aerodynamic 'study' in stalling... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antzx6r Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This is something that confuses me actually. Firstly I agree that every approach should be a glide approach. Many pilots do. From every where in the circuit you should be able to glide to the field except straight after take off. However almost everyone is taught to set a certain rpm and an attitude for descent. Increasing flap settings as you get closer to short final. And adjust power to keep a constant glide path to the keys. Agreed? So now you're on short final with full flap, power set for a greaser and the fan stops. Your glide path goes from perfect to well short of the field. Do you lift the flaps? That might be an option with 5-600ft under you but not with 1 or 200ft. Why are we taught to use power all the way to the flare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This link is a brief review of an accident to a Cessna 205 with some references to FAA spin requirements and Cessna spin testing. Cessna demonstrated compliance to the certification requirements by applying aileron against (i.e. outspin not inspin). Back in 1978, Cessna published some excellent information about spinning their various single-engine models. If anyone is interested I can upload the two page summary. Many aircraft approved for intentional spins will be aided in recovery by inspin aileron. In a spin there are large, opposing forces and moments and the characteristics of a particular aeroplane depends on the differences between those large parameters. Small changes to any of the forces and moments can have significant effects on the spin modes and effects of controls. Aileron drag is one effect of aileron deflection. Another is aileron lift - even at high angles of attack post-stall the aileron develops lift. Whether the effects of the yawing moment or rolling moment dominates ... depends. I agree with Rich's recommendations at that link above. Lots of good info here as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLA82 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Is that why he went missing on the eighth day??? Nah he's not missing, he is out flying while everyone else is trying to work out how to recover from their spins:loopy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 .... he is out flying while everyone else is trying to work out how to recover from their spins:loopy: Yep, beaut weather like this is for flying. I'd rather discuss spins over a nice bottle of red (for medicinal purposes only) during the evening or at the hangar when the weather is miserable.Sorry, I'm on hols, so too much free time and I didn't get a "pass out" to go to the airfield today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLA82 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 It's Ok DJ not pun intended to your post or anyone elses they are all valuable, just flying the trike flag:thumb_up::thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Motzartmerv, not sure if you are on the right track or not, on the use of aileron. It may work, I just don't have any info or experience on it. I do remember being told to minimize aileron use to keep wings level just before a stall. Reason being is that aileron use could initiate a wing stall, leading to wing drop, and a spin. Because I like to keep things simple, I like my spin recovery technique to be easy, effective and automatic. Spinning is fairly stressfull, especially if it is inadvertant. After doing all the basic recovery stuff I don't know if I want to be sitting there trying to work out which aileron up, and which down ?. Just my thoughts mate. The Slepcev Storch by the way has complete and full aileron authority , all the way to stall break, without initiating any wing drop. I guess it's those fixed slats doing their job ?.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Maj, mate, i never said i use it as a recovery technique. It was shown to me to demonstrate how strong the effects of aileron are in the stall. The idea being that we don't use them for that reason. He showed me that the into spin aileron is so strong it can stop the rotation and then start it back the other way.. And another lesson i think was to show how if holding out of spin aileron, it makes things much much worse.. cheers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yes I see you'r point Merv. Hey I'm overdue for some refresher spin training anyway. Sounds like we might be getting a CT-4 on the field..maybee.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I totally agree, Maj Millard. That's why I recommend, as pelorus32 stated, PARE unless there are specific instructions in the POH or AFM. An aeroplane I fly often has a note in the AFM and a cockpit placard which states: "For flat spins use aileron with the spin for recovery." Thats the sort of thing that we need to know. No such guidance in the Cessna Aerobat manual however but you will find that aileron with the spin will make it go flat, not recover. No matter, PARE works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Sounds like we might be getting a CT-4 on the field..maybee.......... Hi MM...can't resist the CT-4 bait - whereabouts are you located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Fly out of Montpelier/Oak Valley just West of Townsville NQld. Haven't seen the plane yet but I'll keep my eye out. Obviously the driver will have to be checked out also............Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antzx6r Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Hey Maj, are you a storch driver yourself? I've been looking for info on them. Is there a website I can check out for performance stats and build details? Are they even still available as a kit? They seem to have dropped off the radar somewhat. I saw a demonstration at YPMQ a few years back. Wind was 021/15-20 or so. From stand still, about 5m roll to airbourne. Like you said, full aileron control. Almost in a hover and he waves the wings at the crowd. And then a slow pass. A dude ran underneth and held the mains. Great bush plane. I like the style too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 The designer has moved back over seas. the closest Storch to you would be the one at Somersby now owned by a guy named Phil I flew this once when it was fitted with hand controls. talk about "up up and away" would have loved to get really famililar with it. here is a link to some footage of it YouTube - Storch at Somersby pig of a day to be flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 A long time ago i was doing some lessons in a C150 and we were doing stalls. the instructor said to use rudder to pick the wing up and not the ailerons. so we did a few full blown stalls then i thought why don''t you use aileron to pick up the wing? so i tried it on the next stall " boy did i get a shock and an earfull off the instructor. it picked the wing up then shuddered and snapped back around lost a bit of height on that one. that wil teach the instructor to skip quickly thru the pre lesson briefing.:big_grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Teach who? Dunno about that. I would have thought that there was a case to listen to what the instructor said.. Since we keep getting on to spinning, and it is one of my pet themes;- All planes are different. They have different recovery techniques, mainly due to the effectiveness ( or lack of it) of the RUDDER. The POH does not generally cover the spin recovery technique in detail, if at all). In some aircraft it is NOT recommended to push the stick very far forward, as the elevator will blanket the rudder on some designs. Not only are the planes (Designs)different, when you move the CofG they become different again. The C-172, normally the most docile of aeroplanes, will become quite nasty when tailheavy. If you add weights toward the nose and tail, (even though the Cof G hasn't changed )in the structure or otherwise, the spin characteristics will change. They can also be misrigged, and be predisposed to flick into a spin in one particular direction. Spinning is an area of flying best kept away from, unless you have all the theory and some real practice under your belt, and "know" your aeroplane The trouble is that "inadvertant" spins will occur with mismanagement. I would have difficulty believing that a person who accidently gets into a spin, would then be a person who could safely recover from it..On the day... Nev.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 boy did i get a shock which is probably why I would have difficulty believing that a person who accidently gets into a spin, would then be a person who could safely recover from it..On the day... The Cessna is a great trainer for demonstrating that - on the other hand, it can catch you out if you haven't seen that behaviour before. Just to get back onto the subject - a recent accident in a 150 was a stall/spin while practicing forced landings. Too many friends lost due to stall/spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Just have a go at stalling and then using the rudder to keep straight and pick up a wing. It works well in Cessna's and also Jabiru's. When I did my last BFR I did it in a Jab for a change and the instructor chided me for losing height in the stall, but I was just having fun. They don't lose much height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 We'd have far less stall/spin accidents if pilots were trained to maintain balance in any form of turn near the ground. Flying out-of-balance is always a sign of someone destined to eventually frighten themselves. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antzx6r Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 the instructor chided me for losing height in the stall Thats a bit harsh. On a navex one day with a thin layer of cloud over the destination field, I asked how we should lose height before the cloud layer. Expecting some professional answer like he usually gave, my instructor said 'why not stall to lose 500 or so'. And we did! Having a ship that will hold a nice controlable stall is such a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 visibility. Did you have a glass bottom in the cockpit so you could see what you were descending onto? Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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