Tonym Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Hi all, I am just pre-GFPT and had a fun time on the weekend flying in my training area. It was early morning and the night's moisture had formed up into some fluffy whiteones in the area but it didn't seem enough to stop me. So I went up looking for at least 3,500 to do stall and recovery work and all was well until close to the training area at about 2,500 where the blue sky was clearly accessible but only through a reasonably large hole in the layer of clouds. So I had the experience of climbing up through a cloud hole which got the heart tickering I must confess - certainly more than the stalls. Above the cloud level there was lovely blue still sky and it was very enjoyable but the pesky buggers seemed to be closing the hole back down again so I made the decision that it would be wiser to descend through the hole and head on back to base early which was a little frustrating because I didn't get through my program. I spent the rest of the time flying circuits below the cloud level and looking wistfully over at the training area which seemed to clear nicely over time (which I must say I had expected - it seemed like a typical fog burning off type of morning). So it was an interesting experience to "dance" with a moving mass of moisture. I reckon at my stage I made the right call to head back but I suspect that people with more experience would be prepared to sit it out or otherwise fly around the cloud to get to home base. Any comments? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 climbing up through holes is risky, for the reason you mentioned, the hole might close up! so best stay below it, though if there is scattered cumulous, and you can see plenty of sunlight on the ground with scattered shadows, then going for a cloud dance is not out of the question, but be aware of traffic, and if in doubt, make a radio call. cloud dancing is a good way to master the steeper turns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thx1137 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 G'day Tony, Good move I reckon. I like to play it safe myself and to try to expand my horizons fairly slowly with something as changeable as the weather. :-) Steven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Would certainly agree that going 'on top' is risky. If it is well broken and stable, it is usually nice above, but still keep a close eye on it. those big holes can become small holes pretty quick. Two stories come to mind for our younger pilots to consider...................................... I had once done some 'cloud dodging' in California in my UL biplane, and needed to let down through a possibly 'less than suitable', but broken cloud layer. I was getting my bearings not far below it, when I looked over, and a medium size twin radial-engined aircraft exited the same broken cloud, just a few hundred meters to one side of me. He was close enough for me to hear the engines. Also in California, my two flying friends and I had arrived over our home field, with the usual marine fog layer streaming in, as it did like clockwork, in that part of the world every afternoon. We weren't done flying yet, as there was still daylight left. One particular large circular hole attracted us, and we found ouselves circling around, well clear of each other towards the outer edge of the large hole. What great fun !, this is what flying is about !!.. A single engine Cessna obviosly looking for a hole to get through, flew straight down through the middle of us. He had to have seen the three brightly colored ULs, and I often wonder what he thought that afternoon !. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 You are better being off, being under the cloud than over sometimes, you made the right decision. You can always fly another day.To many times VFR pilots have gone through a hole, and when the clouds decide to hold hands, you loose your only option. Without being scary, we read about it in a/c crashes. People can never assume fog/cloud will burn off, when the radiation heat of the morning increases. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 In my low experienced opinion I reckon you definitely did the right thing. I'll attach a coupla photos of what I was playing with a little while ago... it probably was totally fine, but I felt a lot more at ease under them than on top... even though the ride was hugely different! The first photo was what it started out as... then about 10 min later is was like the 2nd pic... so I got outta there.... much to my passengers regret! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Tomo both those cloud sceneroes look tecnically legal to me. However we fly within our limits, and if you ain't comfortable up there, then descend as you did, it's that simple. I have cruised for hours above cloud the same as in the second photo, but it can change quickly,and you do keep one eye on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydog Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Tonym There are some rules about flying near to clouds for us mere RA and GA pilots unfortunately without IFR ratings etc. Something like no closer than 1000 foot vertical and 500 horizontal springs to mind. Seems a bit unfair to me but! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracktop Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 If in doubt remember the saying " they don't call em sucker holes for nothing " Usually helps with making a good decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thx1137 Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Of course, it also depends on where and how high you are. For class G: if <=3000 feet AMSL or 1000 feet AGL (whichever is higher) then seperation is clear of cloud and in sight of ground or water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Cloud pics in post #6 pic 1 - looks like 2-3 oktas cover, and quite easy to navigate by visual reference pic 2 - looks more like > 5 oktas cover, and navigation by visual reference would be much more difficult. A navaid and the training to use it would be advisable here. Useful to include climbing between cloud and flying 'on top' in student training at any stage it becomes possible. Good idea to use this as a time to demonstrate just how easily a descent can get out-of-hand and speeds become far in excess of Va. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonym Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Cloud pics in post #6Useful to include climbing between cloud and flying 'on top' in student training at any stage it becomes possible. Good idea to use this as a time to demonstrate just how easily a descent can get out-of-hand and speeds become far in excess of Va. I agree with the above. My training has included (Dual and solo) circuits in bad weather where the cloud base was at or about 1000AGL and other instances where the cloud cover was higher but we weren't getting anywhere near it. On one dual day, the rain and clouds came in so that visibility required staying on the ground for a time while the weather passed. It was really good to get that experience with the instructor on board. But my trips around the training area have been on clear days. So this was my first experience of making a judgment about clouds and I had to do it on my own. Perhaps my tickerer wouldn't have ticked as hard had I either been up there with my instructor or had had the experience previously. I was aware of the VMC rules and, being below 3000 when going through the cloud hole (which as I said was quite large), I felt OK about heading up, clear of the clouds, to the blue sky beyond 3000. All tips and comments appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I shall have to put up some cloud piccies for you all to see. Back to the subject: Tony, you did do the right thing. It is also good to stick within your limits and comfort zone. Don't get into places you don't like to be. Fly safe, stay safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Under 3000' clear of cloud. That is legal, but an IFR flight letting down will not know what level the bottom of the cloud is and will let down through it legally. If you happen to be clear of his cloud as he comes out, just think about it. He is doing 120kts say and is suddenly out of cloud, looking for an airstrip ahead, and where are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Well, Yenn, that is why if you are flying near an RPT airport, you carry a Transponder. AND! You stay away from the strip - as RPTs do straight in's. AND! You make calls when in the circuit. No worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 What a lovely view of clouds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 And some more..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 And some more (last ones I hope) Oh, there are two sets of piccies. The first set is near Tumut flying to YHOT. As bad as it looks, the cloud was patchy and I could make a fix within the required times. The second lot, is in QLD (as you may tell by the names). You can see me coming up in front of me. Then you see the look around. I had Flight following on that flight. The clouds were on the range just west of Caloundra. Anyway, I saw the hole and started to descend through it. Got a call from Brissie asking me if I was doing arial work. I quickly explained I was descending through the clouds - though in hind sight it was a bad choice of words. But all was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Dog, I only hope you have an artifical horizon in both those aircraft, because when the noise stops above cloud like that, you'll need to know how to use it !!....and pray there's no granite below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Lovely Pictures there FD, But I'm certainly with Maj Millard, so be safe... BTW what would you do if your engine stopped? there wouldn't be much choice but to descend through cloud resulting in 'living on the edge'. Or you got some little trick up your sleeve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JG3 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Speaking of tricks up the sleeve, just what would be the best technique to descend through cloud, if caught up there??? I'm not tempted to go over the top, and have no IFR experience, but would like to have a plan of action just in case...... My Savannah is very stable in a full slip. Slow to 45 kts, full right rudder, and watch the ASI to hold that speed, and compass to hold a constant heading. Gives a descent rate 1000fpm, and can be released instantly when clear. Seems that it should work....... Would it???? JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Trim the aircraft for slight descent or straight and level and slightly reduce power to induce a slow descent, let the aircraft descend into the cloud and Dont touch anything!!! Hands off the stick, Let the aircraft fly itself through the cloud. If trimmed right and it's stable, then the aircraft won't get itself into the deadly spiral dive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Trim the aircraft for slight descent or straight and level and slightly reduce power to induce a slow descent. I guess with an engine failure, you'd just set to best glide and go from there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I guess with an engine failure, you'd just set to best glide and go from there? Go where ? (Apart from down) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Go where ? (Apart from down) Exactly, where there are unknowns, there is risks (pretty big ones in this case) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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