JabSP6

This is an extremely sad day for all of us here in Bundy and the aviation community. Our thoughts and condolences go out to the families and friends of the student, instructor and the flying school owner/operator. As mentioned above we would all appreciate it if everyone refrains from speculation to the cause of the accident out of respect for the people involved. All will be revealed in due course when the investigation is completed.

Bob I don't want to change the topic of this thread. I will PM you. Cheers Andrew JabSP6

Bob The motor was in poor condition when i bought it using around 200mls/hr (stuck rings in Pistons). It had a top end rebuild at 580 hrs. I then suffered a no.2 exhaust valve head separation from the valve stem at around 650 hrs. This was mainly due to finding out afterwards that it was running too hot and too lean on a few cylinders. My factory temp gauge on no.6 always showed good temps. I then carried out a full rebuilt including new fine finned heads, Nickasil coated standard barrels (experiment), stainless valves, Full Egt and Cht monitoring of engine fitted etc etc and by around 750 hrs found excessive blowby . This was due to the valve guides being worn/oversize and the nickasil coating coming off the barrells (experiment didn't work). So at 750 hrs i again fully stripped the motor, New Pistons, New Barrels, new K liner inserts fitted to the heads, Ceramic coating etc. I sorted out heating issues and carby issues and now all temps are excellent. CHT's around 110 - 120 C down the hole in the head between the plugs. EGT's around 680 - 700 F at cruise and 620 - 650 F full power. I have now done 1008 hrs total time on airframe with 258 hrs on the latest rebuild and all signs are looking good. No oil usage between service intervals and 72 - 76 / 80 at the 1000hr service done 2 weeks ago. Cheers Andrew

Ian I'm happy to show you around the place anytime if you plan on coming this way. There are some great things to see here with the beaches so close hervey bay just around the corner and Fraiser Island about 25 mins in the jab from here. Not to forget the home of the Bundy Rum. Let me know if i can be of any assistance. Cheers Andrew

Ian Sorry to hear you had to find out about the bushes the hard way. I bought my Jabiru SP6 back in September 2009. I am fortunate enough to live in Bundaberg so i have always had one of the Jabiru guys carry out my 100 hourly services. It was first registered in 2001 and had 560 hours on it when i bought it. During the 700 hr service back in 2010 they recommended we change front susspension bushes as well as doing the Main leg bolt upgrade, replace the rubbers and the seat belt mount position change. I do recall him saying something at that time about the Yellow bushes weren't as good as the red bushes that the now use. This was all done and i guess this has saved me from experiencing what you have just gone through. The plane is going well with over 1000 hrs now and i will continue to have the 100hr services done at Jabiru just for the added piece of mind that if they are aware of any issues they will address it on my aircraft straight away. Cheers Andrew (JabSP6)

Windsor, JG3 & Matto I have also flown into Palmyra on several occasions when having to go to meetings in Mackay. I work with a gentleman that has a hanger at the Marion airstrip and he gave me contacts of some people at Palmyra. Marion doesn't have fuel but Palmyra has a fuel bowser and the guys are only too happy to help out with organising to meet me there and fuel up when required as long as you give them plenty of notice. It is a very beautifull part of QLD to fly around. No landing fees. Just great hospitality by these wonderful folk. Pm me if you are interested in the contact details Cheers JabSP6

Turbo I could not agree more with what you have said. From Jabiru's point of view they have solved this issue by upgrading all of the motors leaving the factory with the larger 7/16" through bolts. The problem is that for all of us that still run the 3/8" through bolts it is a major job to convert to these bigger bolts. The motor has to be completely stripped and bigger engine case locating dowels fitted and barrel mounting holes drilled out before reassembling again. I simply looked for another alternative to doing this as i felt it was a lot of work when there might have been an easier way. Changing from a Machined Thread Bolt to a Rolled Thread Bolt of the same size was a much more practical solution and far more cost effective one for me. The problem i have found with this is it is not a solution for everyone especially those with factory built planes even though the bolts are manufactured by a reputable Bolt Manufacturer be that ARP or Alliance Fasteners. I would suggest for all those out there that have any concerns at all about this idea to do what the factory recomends and pay the extra money and convert to the 7/16" bolts. As i have always said i am looking for ways to make this great motor more reliable but would never compromise its safety. Safe flying JabSP6

Thanks for all the input on this thread guys but it is getting off track now so i ask the Moderator to close this thread and you start up another about Rotax V's Jabiru or one about Certified V's Non Certified engines Cheers JabSP6

Unfortunately the amount of Local Manufacturing has dropped dramatically here with this engine. Cast Barrels and Heads all coming from Overseas. Only very minor work required by CAMIT. The Water Cooled Heads being offered on the market by other manufactures won't fit onto the new cast Barrels (Nikasil Bore). Only downside of the new cast head and Barrel design is that you have to remove the Inlet/Exhaust pipes to tighten the lower head bolt. As RKW says the heads are now tensioned directly to the through bolts, not the barrels. Early pull through tests on the engine hot and cold are extremely positive. No more loss of compression or tightness from distorted barrels when hot. Very good compression of all 4 cylinders with very positive kickbacks after each pull through of every cylinder. Definately a much better seal between the bores and rings. Still a lot more testing to be done before being released as a factory option. But will definately be an improvement if it all gets the tick of approval for certification. wonder what the cost will be to convert to the new barrels and heads. At this stage on the 4 cylinder has been built. JabSP6

Welcome Greg It will be good to see how well the 5100 jab motor performs once you have done all the improvements. The hardest thing will be to try and get reasonably even EGT's across the 8 cylinders. Also make sure you balance the motor before you reassemble it. I found the crank with Prop flange and flywheel attached to be a fair way out at 3000rpm. Also balance the pistons and rods. Made a huge difference to the smoothness of my engine. You can PM me if you wish for a whole list of things that might be worth looking at before you complete the rebuild. Agian all the best with you build and keep us imformed of your progress. Some progress pictures would be great of both the plane and motor build. Merry Christmas Andrew (JabSP6)

I have also heard of the term used is a different context. When you have shift workers going around the clock on projects one crew would refer to the other crew as Dog F###ers or that they have been F###ing the dog last night beacuse it looks like nothing has been done. So there could be a couple of meanings here???

Wayne The first bolts i asked TJ over in W.A. to make up were made the same diameter all the way to the rolled threaded section. As i said in earlier posts they were failing on the bolt side of the nut in the thread section between 55 & 65 ft/lb. I took on board the info other people had mentioned about waisting the bolt to give you a specific area that the bolt will fail and asked TJ to machine a waisted section into each end of the bolt the same as the standard jabiru bolt. He then supplied a few more bolts for me to test and the results again where much better than the standard Machined through bolts from Jabiru. They were now breaking at the waisted section of the bolt and not in the threaded section however the tension required for this to happen has drop marginally to betwenn just under 50ft/lb and 55ft/lb. So the range of failure is more consistant by waisting the bolt but just marginally lower. I think overall for piece of mind those of you who are looking at performing any maintenance on your engine or looking at doing the service bulletin and don't want to go to the trouble or expense of splitting the cases and upgrading to the 7/16" through bolts then the 3/8" Rolled thread through bolts are a much better option than the standard through bolt. It is entirley up to you if you choose to give TJ a call or not. You can do your own testing to give you piece of mind. Allianc Fasteners over in W.A are an altenative supplier of a bolt that gives a higher failure point than the standard bolt that jabiru make. They have all the latest equipment to ensure quality control of each and every bolt they supply to a very large range of industries. I am in no way connected to TJ or involved in his buisness and i am not interested in making any money by becoming a supplier of this bolt. I would ask you all, if you are interested, to contact him directly on the numbers i included in earlier threads. I know there are some of you that have concerns about certified aircraft and not using a bolt that is not certified. This is a valid point when it comes to Legal issues and Insurances. I am not suggesting for a minute to compromise this. All i am saying is all aircraft bolts that you buy are Rolled Thread which is why they are stronger and more expensive than the standard off the self machined bolt. I fly a 19 build aircraft which is Experimental so it is not a concern for me to use these bolts and it is my choice to improve anything that we come across on this forum that can be improved to give me piece of mind when i start up the motor and taxi out for a weekly round trip of 410nm to go to work. I am a big believer of sharing knowledge and experiences and this is what i have been doing since i started flying my SP6 2 1/2 yeras ago. For me it is all about improving the reliability and on a lesser note the economy of these great motors that jabiru are using to ensure i get home safely to my wife and kids each and every week. Fell free to give me a call or PM me if you have any more questions or suggests of things we can look at to achieve this goal. Safe Flying Andrew (JabSP6)

Ian has told me that there are some remote controlled planes that operate from his strip on occassions on sundays so it would be a good idea to give Ian a call if you are planning to fly in the area just to make sure they are not buzzing around. I know this was a practice forced landing and you had no idea you were going to use it but it might be a good to make the instructors aware of this. Wags

Tex , Dazza There are 2 strips at Logan Reserve. I have flown into the southern most strip several times. It is privately owned by a very nice gentleman named Ian. There is no fuel available and it is a bit of a walk out to the road to catch a cab or have someone pick you up. The gate at the road is locked but with prior arrangement Ian has always been very accommodating. If you want to find out a bit more about it you can give me a call or send me a PM. Cheers Wags 0457732474

Greg V Now that you have sorted the problem by swapping Carbies did you strip dowm the old carby and find the cause of the intermittant problem at WOT? Andrew

Will be interesting to see what different types of kits become available. The first kit they are using seems to utilise the distributors but the coils are fired electronically and are adjustable unlike the fixed timing ignition currently used. Also they have multipoint fuel injection fitted to each intake runner. Both these things should make a big improvement to the power and efficiency of the motor. I would still like to keep the carby and use it as a thottle body so that if anything was to ever go wrong with the injection you turn a tap or flick a switch and you back onto the original carby set up. Exciting times ahead with what is out there. JABSP6

Bruce I finally completed testing on the new rolled thread bolts that i received from TJ over in West Aus. I used that exact same conditions and equipment for the test that i had previously tested the standard Jabiru bolts and Jabiru nuts. The Rolled Thread Bolts and Nuts did not deform in any way up to a tension of 50 ft/lb. At 55 ft/lb the tension wrench clicked but it started to feel as though something wasn't quite right. When i then tried to go to 60 ft/lb the Bolt itself broke just on the inside of the nut through a section of the thread. When i then picked up the nut with the broken section of thread the thread screwed straight out of the nut with ease. This suggests that the thread of both the bolt and the nut are perfect and the process of rolling these threads is much stronger than the standard jabiru bolt and nut. The bolt material itself has yeilded between 55 & 60 ft/lb. I then carried out the test 3 more times with similar result of the bolt itself breaking anywhere from 55 ft/lb to 65 ft/lb. Each time the thread section came out of the nut easily using just my fingers to wind it out. This is a huge improvement on my initial tests of the standard Jabiru bolt and nut threads which where failing between 25 & 35 ft/lb by distorting the thread. I will be fitting these new rolled thread bolts the next time i need to do any overhauling of the motor. JABSP6

I just posted a reply on this website last night to try to get a kit for the 3300 engine. The 2200 engine kit is currently being used in a plane with great results. The 3300 kit will go into a plane this weekend. The guys doing these kits say that the Bundy Factory are aware of what they are doing. I hope that means we will be able to purchase these kits soon. Keep you posted. SP6

Hi John. Congrats on your Solo mate. I did all my training in jabirus so you are lucky to be able to fly 4 different aircraft while learning to fly. John G is a great teacher and a very funny bloke. I did my BFR with him a while ago. Say gidday to him for me. Wags

Daniel This is very interesting info. I used this drawing as i guide only. One thing i have done to improve the breathing of the motor is to increase the size of the pipe to the catch can. The I.D of the standard fitting coming out of the dipstick is 10mm. I removed this fitting and replaced it with a 16mm I.D fitting. I also then increased the size of the fitting into and out of the separator and the catch can so that the overall effect is that i now have a 16mm hole through the entire breather system instead of the 10mm standard size. This has had a dramatic effect reducing pressure in the system. I believe with the increased size (more than double the area) of this system i won't have the problems that you described. Just out of curiosity did you make your separator to this drawing? What is the brand of the unit you plan to fit after your rebuild? Andrew

The 6 x EGT/ 6 x CHT Gauge and sensor Jaba-who is refering to is MGL's TC-3 (12 channel thermocouple system) and probe package. From memory it was around $1200 but don't quote me on that. It was about 18 months ago worth every penny compaired to a new engine I bought it from Bernard atAsia Pacific Light Flying Pty Limited (02) 6259 2002 Mobile/Cell: 0419 423 286 E-mail: [email protected] Web site: http://www.lightflying.com.au/

King Daniels I am curious as to why you think the separator won't work. I'm not sure how much oil you think is going to be in this separator at any one time. It is fairly comon for jabiru motors to use around 50ml/hr. Not all of this oil will be pushed out the breather. Some of it will be burnt. So for a 2 hr flight I would not expect to see any more than around 80 mls in the catch can for a motor in good condition. The airflow is by no means restricted. It flows in the bottom entrance and hits the first plate where it then has to flow to the top RH side then hits the second plate and flows to the LH side and so on through the 5 plates. any oil that is separated from the change of direction runs down the plate and when the motor is turned of will run back through the mouse holes at the bottom of each plate and back to the motor. The canistor is at no time restricted. I have had this unit fited for around 80 hrs now and it is working perfectly. I have removed it a few times to check to see how it is working and there is no restriction what so ever. The last 25 hrs i flew i didn't find any oil in the original catch can that is fitted after the separator. I did find a small amout of water in the catch can which i emptied. As John has mentioned the design of this Separator has been around for quite some time and have been used on the Jabiru motors in different countries. I have spoken to people from another forum overseas that have been using them for a few years and they swear by them. Andrew

Andy I haven't tried to make the PVC style but it wouldn't be that hard. Everything can bought from the local hardware store. I just wasn't real keen on the idea of having the stainless steel wire in an area that potentially could over time deteriorate and break off ending up back in your motor. I had 2 make up. 1 in Aluminium & 1 in Stainless Steel. As i said i think the benefit of the metal over the PVC is that it will heat up and retain some of the heat from the motor which will help with the condensation issue. One thing we changed from the design slightly was to have all 5 internal plates attached to a rod running through the centre of the plates. We then welded the plates to the rod and welded the rod to the inside of one of the end caps. This kept them at the set distance and eliminated the need to have all the welds on the outside of the pipe. This just makes the unit look a bit nicer. They polish up quite well on the lathe. I can have one made one up for you if your keen out of Stainless Steel. These are easier to make up for and end up being about the same weight as the aluminium units as the Stainless Steel is a thinner material than the Aluminium. I'm not interested in selling these in big numbers which is why i gave the drawings to John to post on the forum. I did sell one to a bloke in Emerald (Qld) and he is wrapped in it. I gave it to him for what the engineering firm charged me. $130 Andrew

Andy It doesn't impact on the cooling as most of the cooling for these cyliders is done from the air in the duct. There is minimal amount of air that flows over the top of the motor. I have no issues with cyl or head temperatures in my SP6 and i have one of these separators fitted. This picture is from a install to a plane from Europe. My Air Ducts only leave about 5 fins uncovered from the cylinders. All other fins from the cylinders and heads are cooled from the air ducts. You can change the design if you like to make the separator thinner or shorter but you get the general idea of what the concept of the separator is trying to achieve. I have also seen a separator fitted in this location made from PVC pipe with screw on end caps filled with Stainless Steel Wire. It was only about 1 1/2" wide and 5" long fitted to a 2200. There are a lot of different ways you can make one of these to have the same effect. No top up of oil between 25 hr services. Andrew

John I am flying back to Bundy from Work this afternoon. I will be home so give me a call and i can meet you up there. 0457732474 Andrew