turboplanner

That's a Short Field Landing in the PPL syllabus, for when whatever you've chosen doesn't have the rolling distance you want.

So another post, another rude No Quote. I'll assume you were aiming your spleen at me. I'm not backward in being critical of RAA when it warrants it, but they don't have an "attitude" to LL. That's an existiong regulation. If you want to change it best read their Constitution to see what the process is to change regulations, and if you can get agreement and someone to put the motion up, why not do something.

1. It's good manners to use the Quote link, just like I've done here. It's only a single click, then we know what you are referring to. 2. Just so you know LL regulation is not up for debate; just a few people clarifying it. You might be the messenger but that's all the more reason to refer to the Recreational Aviation Australia Rules and quote them.

Low level flying is clearly defined under Recreational Aviation Australia Ltd regulations; very clearly defined. I realise you were talking about the Dreamtime in the past where, if something went wrong for the student practising what he was taught, CASA picked up the tab, and if necessary smacked the instructor on the knuckles. We are no longer in that era.

I think it's an anomally in RA, perhaps a mistaken carry over from the time they were only allowed to fly in paddocks at less than 300 feet. If you want to check stock etc, you can easily do it at 500 feet. If you didn't charge the student for it, you still introduce risk that the student will go out the next day, mimic what he was shown and suddenly find himself face to face with a row of tall pine trees because he was focussed on the ground.

Yes, correct, albeit its gliders that do Outlandings because while they are not going to get off again if they screw up, they can come in much higher and use the airbrake to quickly change the descent angle once they are sure of the landing zone, and they can glide at a much shallower angle, whereas a recreational aircraft by comparison has a lot more drag, and if you are too conservative you overshoot and don't have an air brake. When the engine fails in a powered aircraft it's called a Forced Landing to change your mindset to full alert. Around 15 years ago there were a lot of forced landing fatals due to RA pilots either pulling back on the stick thinking that would keep the aircraft flying or simply crashing in from a thousand feet to ground which was fine for forced landings. They also happen at the most inconvenient times. The terminology Low Level is different to Forced Landing. In Forced Landing you can do anything necessary to save yourself. In Low level you are going to deliberately fly the aircraft under 500' (which is illegal without a Rating and reason for the rating), so you are going to be taught about how you must turn, flying under wires, and a lot of other skills you aren't taught in Forced Landings. The risk is also much higher.

Well between Rodger's figures and mine we have 3 to 17 hours average; take yoour pick. We all know about the academic who drowned in a creek of average depth 150 mm, so I wouldnt get hung up on that. There will be some people who haven't flown for 10 years while they were building their dream. There's nothing wrong with talking about low level training, upset training, training under the hood. But you have to stay connected with cost for the pilot vs risk. If Pilots can't afford to fly you don't have a risk problem. Similarly if you were to argue that the RA Instructors needed a new complex training programme, If instructors can't pay the cost then you won't have instructors. That still leaves Parachuting, where a lot of hours are racked up, Balloons, Warbirds and perthaps Powered Parachutes and Paragliders, but let's say its between 3 and 17, it's still averaging which I agree doesn't tell you much.

I only posted the complete list of SAOs (Self Administering Organisations) a couple of days ago, so people would understand the CURRENT structure of Aviation in Australia today. Here is the lst of Sport Aviation Self-Administering Organisations again: Australian Parachute Federation Australian Sport Rotorcraft Association Australian Warbird Association Ltd Gliding Federation of Australia Recreational Aviation Australia Ltd Sports Aviation Federation of Australia (Note: SAAA are not in the Self Administering Organisation group)

....deduced that Tasmanians would be extinct within 6.32 years. In a post-thesis survey, 63.98% thought that would be a good idea, 35.02% asked whether this would affect gambling, and the other 1% wanted to save the emus. As bull has discovered, Tasmanians are the most genuine people of all States; Turbo has attended some of those meetings, albeit out on the lawn. When Bob was king of Tasmania he was more popular than Jesus, but they had a signing woman outside the door who kept us up to date with the motions, votes, reports and fights, which was good if you could sign. Most of the Lawn People as they became known would drift off to .................

Well I agree with you about mean averages, but RA is only a small part of SAOs, so you'd have to deduct the hours from: Parachuting Sports Rotorcraft Balloons Powered Parachutes Para Gliders Warbirds Gliding

I haven't seen an annual figure average for a PPL, but in both RA and GA cost is the limiting factor. For PPL, hire rates at Royal Victorian Aero Club are currently (per hour): C152 $245.00 C172N $280.00 C172SP $290.00 PA28 Warrior $285.00 PA28 Archer $295.00 PA28 Arrow $345.00 One of the best plans I've seen for staying current at the bare minimum annual cost, was a guy who did 30 minutes per week. He didn't fly on bad weather days and he took holidays. So on current costs for a C152 that would be: 40 weeks x 0.5 hrs = 20 hrs/yr x $245.00 = $4,900.00/year That was in one of the busiest circuits in the country, so he was always on his toes and up with his pre-flight, pre-takeoff, circuits, downwind checks, landings etc. RA rates for RPC Jabiru J170 $110.00, $174.00, $220.00 Jabiru J230 $207.00

I think I read a while back the average annual hours of RA pilots is 3 hours. Would it be wise to teach low level flying under those conditions? Since we switched to Visibility 5 km (5000 m) ahead, I think the fatality rate has dropped significantly. In GA we don't seem to get that batch of people killed around May, and given all those people were trained for hours under the hood, I would suggest the 5 km visibility is the more significant life saver of the two. There's also the factor that in RA there is very little cross country flying, and in particular flights from Victoria to Queensland or vice versa where you need to manage the flight to suit two or three weather changes.

I wasn't looking for any point, I was correcting an error. The Australian Warbird Association Ltd, under CASR Part 149, is part of the Self Administering Organisations.

Go back a few posts to where I quoted you, and spent the time going onto the CASA site and transcribed all of the Self Administering Organisations and you will see it listed there.

Not as of this morning according to CASA.

You were given good advice on where it can be fitted in, so no point in repeatedly telling us you can't fly it.

Well VH Experimental is totally in the clutches of the John McCormacks whereas under CASR Part 149, RAA is part of the Self Administering Organisations. Self Administering Organisations as at January 2025 Australian Parachute Federation Australian Sport Rotorcraft Association Australian Warbird Association Ltd Gliding Federation of Australia Recreational Aviation of Australia Ultralight Recreational Weight-shift Microlight Light Sort Aircraft Sports Aviation Federation of Australia Hang gliding Paragliding Weight-shift Microlights The members of each of these bodies can draft or redraft their Constitutions, so they self-administer their organisations and take direct responsibility for any issues. CASA does issue broad guidelines. The part that is sometimes forgotten is that all of these people fly in CASA, and Airservices airspace so must also learn and comply with CASA and Airservices safety regulations I would agree that CASA and Airservices need to simplify the way they communicate these regulations. I broke down the Recreational Aviation Australia and Sports Aviation Federation of Australia sections to show how some activites migrate from one organisation to another or can be duplicated. Re your comment on paperwork, confusion, cost, these are things that Members need to act on at regullar meetings or change the Constitution to ensure these things are addressed and there are pathways to do this other than just barking at the Government which is now at arms length from these self-administering organizations, so unlikely to step in. SAFA is by far doing the best job of promoting to the general pubic in my opinion.

Was that Damien Christensen, the Geelong footballer?

........words we can't mention on this site.#1 It was during this training that most of the people were groomed, and joined the Tasmanian hordes. Today thousands of them flock into UTAS in Hobart to get their degrees in Climate Science. Mant of them visit old Bob Brown haunts like ................ #1 Turbo got this line from his local newspaper yesterday. The innocent young female journalist who wrote the story about an Australian punk rock group, described how every second word was an unacceptable swear word, and inuended that some of them were REALLY bad. There was a poll at the end of the story for readers to vent their degree of shock. Attached to the story was a link to the group singing the song, so the young lady was not quite so chaste, and Turbo, then a teenager, had to go for a walk to recover from the shock of hearing the worst coupling of foul language since, he was captured by an older girl and 20 of her mates to be the floor show at a secluded beach party.

.....model Tasmanians and taught Tasmanian words like "Mainlander", or .......

....Queenslanders and WAliens disappear to Tasmania where they are recycled, re-educated and re............

.......sheep studs of the Riverina, where jackaroos educate them and relieve them of any wealth they might be carrying on their backs, their phones and their credit cards. They are then carted out in the back of a ute to the back of beyond - somewhere like Balranald or Moulamein where the locals offer them a ride to Victoria for a grand payable up front. So they all finish up going on the fruit, where they find out what its like to work for Italians.........

Quote your own rubbish.

.....like everyone in that sliver of no man’s land between Victoria and just north of Kapooka to indenting the inbred grovelling population. Queenslanders called Victorians Mexicans but as we know they have difficulty with maps and these isolated people resented it and for years blamed the government for being picked on. when they saw Albo taking the Mickey out of them In his sombrero they attacked him with their ingrown nails and......

........head for Mexico." Albo wasn't sure if this was good advice or someone else taking advantage of him, so he did nothing and finished up in the ...........