motzartmerv

Absolutely. Let's do it :)

Ok, so how can a load limit be reached without a change in direction (acceleration)? Its not simply the increase in stall speed, again a common misconception.

Yes va is clearly something that confuses most. The problem with full deflections is the rapid rate that full deflections will make a 'change' to the aeroplane. If you suddenly rip the stick back and you are above VA , this rapid pitch Change will increase loads to a dangerous point. If you are flying at or below va, this full deflection will not cause load problems becuse the wing will stall before it reaches load limits. The reason VA increases with weight is due to the extra enertia, or the aeroplanes tendency to " resist" change . So when you are light an fluffy, the aeroplane can change attitude much more rapidly. Add weight , increase enertia, and the same control deflection won't effect change as quickly:) so VA is increased.. Clear as mud??

True that pots. I think VA is little understood. For instance, VA actually increases as weight is increased, contrary to popular belief.

Add a severity level for light aircraft. If it says Mod, then in a 500 kilo aeroplane you can expect severe. If its forecasted as Severe, then expect anything up to and including limit testing turbulence in a 'ultra' light aeroplane. We fly for fun!!!

Wasnt a clip Phil. Its a documented fact.:) No youtube back in the days this happened.

Hi deborah. Can we all just keep speculations to a minimum please. An eye witness report doesn't mean jack in the real world of investigation. Anyone with any experience with these matters will tell you 5 people witnessing the same event will have 5 different stories to tell. Lets wait and see what is uncovered by the people on the scene.

Having flown both aircraft, I can give the following comparison. Best Cruise speed.... Very similar around 100kts Best climb performance... Similar, but with a synsnich prop the Brumby is slightly better Range... Similar Engine options.... Brumby have 2.. teccie has 1 Handling... The tecnam is a bit skatey on the ground, in the air very nice. Both are similar, although the ailerons in the teccie are heavier then the brumby Xwinds... The brumby wins hands down. Strength... Brumby Comfort... If your not tall, the teccie. If your tall, the brumby. Over all. I would have to go with the Brumby out of those two choices.

We need to be careful drawing any conclusions at all based on "what me mate told me" and assumptions based on what we reckon is or isnt possible. An f15 eagle made a successful landing with an entire wing missing once. There are several factors being raised as contenders and as is usually the case its never just one that causes the accident.. We need to let the facts come out.

Sad sad news. I hope the families are being looked after tonight. If anybody here knows them please pass our condolences from everybody on the site. ts prangs like this that really highlight how much we miss out on by not having propper investigations performed. If something has departed the aeroplane, then jees id like to know how, and why. But today, we just need to worry about the poor people who have empty chairs at the dinner table tonight.

I heard a rumor they were trying to get rid of it all together from the new version. What a shame that would have been. And would ahve really upset alot of Instructors, me included!!

True that!!

One of the biggest challenges of a reasonably busy pilot (instructor) is to ward off complacency. Its very very easy to slip into it when you have done this sequence, this flight, this aeroplane 1000 times before. It takes constant, relentless focus and I personally have had to battle against it a lot, and recognise the symptoms in others.

Lol.. Sure is!!

No that's not it at all..

A mate of mine told me a trick he uses when hes concerned about landing areas on upwind. He takes note of the airfield QNH, then before takeoff, sets 0 in his ALT regardless of elevation. He knows his machine very well and picks his turn back height mentally. That way the alt is always reading height AGL so a quick glance is all thats needed. After departure he returns the Alt to AMSL. A certain instructor may or may not have included this trick (in some circumstances) as part of his training..

Oscar I would have to go with b) Any situation tht resulted in the survival of the occupants is my only concern. The aeroplanes ae insured and are of secondary consideration. . HIC if what we are already doing was working, then why do we still see this type of fatality so heavily represented? We also do stalling training but people are still stalling turning base aren't they. I for one am always lookig for ways to improve my techniques, and wish never to be stuck on " this is how I do it and it's the only way". Maybe when I'm a cranky old bastard that's been training people dor 190 years I'll feel differently. But until then I'll avoid the dangerous and stagnate attitude that I have all the answers and how I do it now is the only way. Never stop learning as they say;)

Yes thats an interesting point. And one of the things we are trying to explain. How do we react when we have a preconceived idea about whats going to happen/ verses an abnormal situation jumping out of the blue. The pre take off safety brief is pretty much standard issue these day (i hope). If it sh!ts, I will lower the nose, bla bla. My psych friends are in agreement that this will help. But they think it needs to be elevated a notch to say: " I am going to lift off and then land in that paddock over there, or that road over there etc. When your climbing out your setting yourself up mentally to land in the paddock. Not cringing hoping it doesnt fail. As your paddock (option) passes under you you move onto the next paddock where you are going to land.Or your next "path of least resistance" They have data showing the reaction times when confronted with a sudden change vary greatly depending on the state of mind/ activity of the person when it happens. Acting on an "existing mental plan" is by far the best result , as apposed to " calculating, judging heights, assessing etc" This takes time and mental 'space' The thinking is the training should not be focused on sudden shocking reduction of power, but rather pre planned, pre organised approaches down into (towards) paddocks form various stages on upwind. Initiated by calm patter " the engine is about to fail and we are going to land in that paddock" Rather then " Silence" The engines failed, where are we going?" The difference is subtle, but according to those that are in the know, this will set the pilot up in "landing mode" NOT takeoff mode, which we believe if performed often during AB intio, will embed in the " psyche" of the pilot and he will from then on, always be taking off in " Landing mode".

...Strewth.. I will, if you talk me through getting a trailer to the top of mount whannahackaloogie in papua..lol

Tubz. See the red aeroplane sitting there? ultralights was actually in that aeroplane when this engine failure on downwind occurred (i believe). Oscar, that situation you described sounds nasty and thank god you had the sense to pull up. It would be a cold day in hell before I would argue with any pilot against the better judgement of not taking off in conditions or in an aircraft that they determined to be un suitable, above their capabilities etc. Overly cautious is my middle name, and while your brothers stories of 'sitting it out" are useful, they are nothing that any pilot with any sort of experience would not have been through. Mate ive lost count of how many times ive been forced down, forced to over nght, forced to alter a plan etc. Its part of the game. I, just 2 days ago, returned from a ferry job from perth to gladstone for a swap of aircraft, then gladstone to jaspers. All in 5 days (at 90kts) while racing weather I could see at my destination airfield 3 days in advance. But not once did I land at an airfield I had not called before I took off, to check if fuel was available, accommodation options etc. Its all part of planning. So yes, im more than in agreement with you that sitting it out when things aren't right is the ONLY option. My contention is the notion that de rigging and trailering out is an option for us all with the determining factor being 'insufficient landing options in an EFATO". I dont think thats a reasonable option thats available to the majority of pilots.

Ill break the story through the proper channels Tubz.. Having the armchair brigade endorse it wont be high on the list of priorities..

Tell the CFI to hold your beer while you take to his aeroplane with a shifter and pair of pliers you happen to have...hahaha.. Made my day you have mate!!..

How about...Go somewhere else? You dont have to pull the aeroplane apart.. And you reckon my brains gone soft..lol:roflmao:

Lol..How about worrying about the 10000 takeoffs your going to do from your home strip, and not the one in a million event where you may decide to use a trailer because youve pranged or been forced down on some one way goat track.. Trailering IMHO is not how to deal with an EFATO.

Yes. I get that Nev. How is this helping people understand and train for better EFATO outcomes though?