Pearo

Please leave option out of this thread, its intended to be a learning thread and a place to ask ATC's questions. It would be nice if it did not become the standard shitfight that every other thread seems to degenerate into.

Well done! I got a chuckle out of this. I did all my training on the 172, but have not flown one since getting my CSU endorsement and getting into a 182. I got the opportunity to do a small ferry in a 172 last Friday, and I did not realise how nimble and wind affected they are compared to a 182! I can imagine the difference to an LSA now!

Question number one. I have have visited BNE centre and the tower thanks to the cousin of a good friend of mine (Geoff, who is now retired). I would dearly love to take another look at BNE Centre now I am licensed, and I think it would be great if I could also organise a trip for other club members to take a look. Given what I took from it last time, I think its a huge benefit to all pilots. I am fortunate in that I know a few controllers at BNE centre, so I think I can organise a trip. How could other clubs organise visit/tour of the facility?

Yay, I was planning on starting this. You guys rock, this needs to be stickied. Everyone should love CTA, not be scared of it.

Problem with radio navaids, is they are all being phased out. And the ones that break down now are not being fixed. Also, all the g1000 cockpits I fly dont have ADF recievers, so NDB's are useless to me. Unfortunately, everything is going GPS.

Trip done as planned. 4 legs with the first IFR. I am sold on IFR, so much easier, and I reckon safer too.

Got to experience IFR for the first time!! I am hooked. Flew out of YRED in perfect conditions with a pilot on his first solo IFR since passing the test. Never got to fly through cloud on depature, but I am sold on flying IFR, IMO its the best and probably the most safest way to fly. Despite my disappointment with not punching through cloud on departure, on descent to Emerald we did get experience the fluffy stuff. Best part about it, flying on top with out being concerned about cloud at your destination! I have the IREX books and have started the study, this was some encouragement to pursue an IR!

Oh, and on this subject I have had some cranky ATC before, but I realise these folks get inundated. What we also dont realise is that sometimes we dont hear other aircraft when ATC do, so often we talk over them. Sometimes they cannot deal with us because they are busy with other aircraft. But sometimes we hear the best of it, today for example. I heard ATC repeatedly calling another aircraft, everyone went silent, and it was clear a few of us on frequency were a little concerned. Then ATC asked another aircraft to attempt a relay, and we heard that ATC could hear the other aircraft but they could not hear him. Same trip, I was VFR and yet ATC still provided me with traffic information that was not requested. I do get a little annoyed when people rag on ATC's, we get far more from them than they get from us (if they get anything at all from us?). These folk dont get anywhere near enough credit for what they do.

I was the one that said the green frequency, assuming most people here flying VFR in CTA will be using VNC's and VTC's. Re Gold Coast, I am going to fess up here and state my ignorance. I have landed and transited GC a few times now, and I know the procedure. I am sure that the ERSA has details and I think I hinted at that earlier, but I cheat and use the VTC which has details on who to contact for clearance. Note: Adding shags to the list of people we need to invite to a potential ATC megathread. BTW Shags, surely the DAH is not targeted at pilots?

This point cant be stressed enough. Most Class D towers will also allow students to visit, and this is well worth the excercise

Worth noting that the old YBAF VFG is not current (though still has lots of useful stuff in it). The casa OnTrack website should have most of the current info. Its also worth some regular study time with the ERSA with YBAF, because they seem to change the procedures all the time. Ie, I notice that they have dropped the recent requirement to nominate outbound track already. The YBAF controllers are also pretty forgiving within reason (as are YBSU) because they know their bread and butter is pilots in training. http://ontrack.casa.gov.au/index

Cheers. I have done a fair few trips through Amberly now. The YAMB controllers are fairly accommodating, I cant recall having been refused clearance through there yet. I have been diverted due to incoming aircraft, but I quite enjoy that because its provides some entertainment with mil aircraft! I must admit, my preference is to fly in CTA when I can, and I try to plan CTA where possible. This recent weather has made it difficult for any VFR pilot to maximise time in CTA! I promised myself I would get started on my PIFR this year, so that might help in that regard!

I have not seen the new walkways, but I have to travel to Melbourne soon so I might get a gander. I am one of those pricks who cant walk well, all self inflicted thanks to motorcycles, so no sympathy vote expected. I am a stubborn prick though. and I refuse to use carts or that bullshit. Suck it up princess, the long walk hurts and takes weeks to overcome, but its better than using a fat fark cart!

Also, we need an ian and rhys (any any other lurking ATC) megathread so we can bounce these questions off you guys! Having ATC's here is an awesome resource. Can I start one with your approval?

FWIW, aplund said they get a code on the ground at YBAF as per company policy. Whilst we have ATC in the house though, what determines when centre give clearance as opposed to getting handed off to approach or depatures for the clearance? I am guessing workload and traffic? I have noticed MIL controllers do the same, often ACD will give you clearance before handing you off, but not always.

This sounds correct, once you are outside of Controlled airspace, ATC no longer provide control services. However I am not sure of exactly what you were doing, I think I have an idea though. Have a good look at your VTC, note that the CTR (the blue dotted line) at the gold coast is from SFC to 1500. If you are entering the CTR directly from Class G (you would have to be at 1500ft or less), clearance always comes from the tower. Above 1500ft at the GoldCoast, is Class C CTA, in this airspace the clearance comes from Brisbane Centre (who will most likely offload you to APP or DEP for the actual clearance).

Look, I am not saying not to read the ERSA. This should be the first thing you do when flight planning. You will notice there is a little entry in the ERSA about obtaining a code for clearance into Gold Coast, where the OP is flying, ie it tells you what sector to contact and what frequency. The post I put above, was a simple explanation for applund in the area he/she is flying in. The problem is, your first entry into Controlled airspace, especially Class C is very daunting, At this point, its only necessary to keep it simple. This is clearly early days, because by the end of the PPL OP will probably not be asking these questions (although I often still do beyond PPL). BTW, comments like that from DWF are not constructive, and people like DWF should remember that they were students once. So, let me rewrite my basic rules for the pedants. Arrivals: Class G into Class D CTR : contact tower. Class G into Class C CTA or CTR : contact Centre (or APP, refer to charts) for code and clearance details. Class G into MIL, contact Delivery (ACD): Departures: Class D into Class G - contact Ground (SMC) for taxi and clearance, Class D into Class D CTA - ACD or SMC for clearance (refer ERSA) - SMC for taxi clearance. Class D into Class C - ACD or SMC for clearance (refer ERSA)- SMC for taxi clearance. (note departure/airborne reports) Class D into MIL - Contact ACD for clearance, SMC for taxi. Any cases I have missed? Now, for OP what was less confusing?

Mil airspace is the exception.

This finer point is often missed. If you want to enter the charlie airspace outside of CTR, GC tower does not give this clearance. At the end of the day, they know where I am going (and my preferred alt), and I don't even request clearance, i just await instruction. My call is 'Centre*, callsign/type, location/alt, To destination'. I think this is stipulated in the AIP. Even when requesting code, you dont specifically need to ask for a code. The request to ATC is implying that you are requesting clearance, and in the case of requesting a code they will respond remain OCTA as if the clearance was not issued. * When I say centre, this will usually be the name in the Green Box on the chart. Mil is the exception as the airspace control will depend on when the airspace is active. However, as I have learned if you call up the Centre Controller and get clearance in CTA BEFORE entering Mil Airspace, the onward clearance is usually more forthcoming :P

Actually, this is not correct either. And I never said BNE centre. If you want to get technical, The correct answer is not in the ERSA either. Its a combination of ERSA and VTC/VNC. The green frequency on you chart is the frequency you call for a code, and this depends where you are. If outside 22DME in Cairns, in this case you will be calling BNE Centre and they will give you instructions to obtain clearance.

Class D, call the tower. Class C, call Centre for a code. Mil, call clearance delivery for a code. (note the part about obtaining a code, that is the giveaway) For MIL and Class C, the controller will usually hand you off for clearance, and will tell you what frequency you need to request your clearance on.

Yup, I am hearing you. I was lucky because I did my navs in mixture of analoge and digital cockpits. My solo navs were both in analog (although my test was in g1000). The DG is one thing I was a little paranoid about, so I checked it a lot more often than not. There is another valuable lesson with your story, lost procedure! I actually got lost in my PPL test whilst doing a low level diversion!! But I recovered, found myself and got to where I needed to be!! The ATO got me lost again under the hood, found myself again. I have been really lost about 4 times whilst training, it would have been easy to cheat and just fly east to the coast, but each time I persisted and worked out where I was based on topography alone.

I will turn the moving map off, not sure I am comfortable flying purely compass and clock, as its actually pretty hard on the compass alone. I might try it though. I have done some short legs on compass alone, but its hard to read, especially at this time of year with all the thermal turbulence. When I was training, I had the instruments taken away from me a lot. Its a good way to teach people how to fly. I remember in the early days of doing circuits, I would loose all my instruments too!! Harsh, but I can pick a profile and approach speeds now with out having to spend the whole time in the cockpit. Actually, when doing my CSU endorsement I was commended on my situational awareness, and a lot of that stems from the way those instructors taught me to fly. Its not that we think we are going to be forced to DR, its that we want to. The guy I am flying with is a CPL student, so he is going to be tested on this. I figure that given I fly a mixture of planes with varied levels of GNSS capability, that its probably a good exercise for me also. Both of us will be DR'ing on all legs regardless of who is PIC. I can fly GNSS, and that is pretty much all I have done since obtaining my PPL (although I did revert to paper on one trip). EDIT: Sorry Don, I kinda skipped over a few things you said there. If you look in my flight bag, you will find 2 iPads. I have 2 because it was always my intention to use ozrunways as primary navigation once I completed my PPL. I navigate by map to ground, that is I plot my expected position on the map, then confirm that position by looking at the ground. This trip will be pretty much in WAC, and I hate the E6B. I use a CR-2, its fantastic in the cockpit and it will fit in your top pocket!

Thats the way its still taught.. Its not far off from the way offshore nav is taught to boaties either. I was taught astral nav, but most of that is lost now.

BTW, the biggest problem with the G1000 is it does not have most of the Aussie ALA's in its database. Its clearly aimed at IFR flight plans, not VFR. The next biggest problem is it does not show CTA steps, once again because I think its primarily target at IFR.