Adrian Lewer Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi all I have been doing some research today and am absolutely horrified at GA Instructors at the moment. they just want cash... (nothing we do not already know) I want to convert from RAA to GA and as far as I am aware all I need to do is a conversion in the 152 (or whatever it may be) 2 or so hours do 2 hours IFR 2 hours show the instructor I can do nav's 2 hours, controlled airspace 5 hours ( and as far as I know I do not have to do this solo as I am already solo ?) so there is 9 hours lets call it 10 and be done with it then I need to do the BAK and PPL exams then I am done ? is this correct. 1 school told me I need to do 40 hrs min and RAA hours don't count. I told them they do, we had an argument, the young instructor got the ****s and threw his paperwork around and stormed off, I asked a friend of mine who instructs at a college his thoughts and he gave me this ammunition (below) . I went back an showed them (him and his CFI) and they said OK maybe in 30 or so hours with a CTA ? 30 hours ? WTF how can they justify this ? Private pilot (aeroplane) licence: aeronautical experience required (1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.77 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical experience must consist of at least 40 hours of flight time as a pilot, being flight time that includes: (a) at least 5 hours of general flight time as pilot in command; and (b) at least 5 hours of cross‑country flight time as pilot in command; and © at least 2 hours of instrument flight time. (2) The 40 hours must be recognised flight time that was flown in a registered aeroplane, recognised aeroplane, helicopter, gyroplane, glider, power‑assisted sailplane or group A ultralight. Another told me they do count and I would be expected to do it in 20-30 hours ? I have asked why so long and they tell me I need to go out in an aircraft and do nav'x's and show I am competent, show I can fly the A/C, they I need to go and do PFL's in the A/C (as far as I am concerned I don't) and when I ask why 20-30 hours for this 1 instructor's ansewr was (so you can get use to faster A/C) despite me telling him my previous hours and A/C flown ? I am lost am I barking up the wrong tree here ? I did find this but as the instructor pointed out it is wrong as the BAK and PPL Exam are on the wrong side of the line. He also says 20 odd hours ? http://www.rvac.com.au/files/flighttrainningstepsv3.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 While I am on the subject I must make mention of this. I am not the worlds best pilot, nor will I ever be I am not after someone to "GIVE ME" my PPL but at the same time I don't want a cash grab either. If an instructor points out I am great in one part and not another well then we need to work on that but as for showing me stuff I know over and over at $225 per hour forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi Adrian, they do count as you already know,but you have to find a school which will accept the facts.Try and find a dual school ie-RAA/GA close to you. Dont even bother with the school mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 I agree they said "oh we will look into it and get back to you" but I would rather give my money to someone who does there best to get it (so to speak) and has my best interests at heart not there own (financial) interests. I have found a few schools who do RAA/GA but they are not local some over 5 hours away. I did however find 1 school who was in there words (unsure) of the process and grabbed my name and number. they got back to me with between 10-20 hours but also I liked it when the 10 YO instructor said to me " I think the best thing to do is get you into the 172 and see where your at" I thought this is the attitude but this place is 3.5 hours away. I am thinking of actually just going there for a suck it and see meeting. but 3.5 HRS ? It gets up my goat that I have 3 airports with in 15 mins of my place and none of them want to know me... Now having said all this I am interested in a full time course in BAK as I am rusty and have trouble understanding some aspects of the syllabus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 If you will consider travelling down to Moorabbin, drop in to see Steve Galjar (CFI) at Melbourne Flight Training. I approached many of the schools here recently, wanting to get back into it after 6 years out of the cockpit. Most weren't particularly helpful, but Steve took half an hour out to show me everything I would need to study up on, gave me some paperwork about procedures that have changed, and all for nothing. Again, they had the approach "Let's go for a fly and see where you are at". Not the cheapest, not the dearest but they had the best attitude so that was enough for me.... As for the BAK course, I wouldn't bother. Buy the study books and just work your way through it. I think the theory courses are the biggest rort, the stuff is pretty straightforward and texts like the Thom series are very easy to understand. Cheers Shane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 yep I will give them some thought but I think I am on to 2 half decent school ATM... just waiting to go and see them. 1 of the schools I went to was actually not far from them. the Vic aero club and they wanted me to do the whole syllabus I am actually trying to find the wording but I have found out that my instrument flying which was 1 hour will count towards my PPL instrument flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hey Adrian, not sure if you've been following my GA conversion progress or not, but I had similar issues at first. One school close by didn't know for sure, and I didn't particularly like the price range, though the flight instruction there was good, I knew that from word of mouth. If it is any consolation, I drive over 3hrs each way to do my GA training. About 700klm round trip. When I first rang up about it, he basically told me it could take 10 or 100hrs... in other words, come in and we'll see where you're at, and how you go. I thought it sounded fair, and from word of mouth this particular school was well recommended in general. We sat down and went through the stuff, and this is what he wanted me to do, minimum: Handling - 2hrs Instrument Prec search and landing take off/landings Soft field take offs and landings. 2hrs Solo circuits Nav's - 1 Radio Nav using aids 1 IF nav 1 Solo nav And then a recommendation flight. *Also CTA in there somewhere, but not sure how much of that I gotta do, just depends on how you pick it up I suppose. I thought that was fair enough, really. I was sent Solo at 1.8hrs in the 172, Have done the 2hrs solo circuits, 1.8hrs instrument, the handling stuff etc... I found the 172 pretty easy once I got into the groove of things, it's an honest aircraft. Best bet is to go for a run with someone, then they can give a better idea of how you will go. I planned on 10hrs but not really worried If I go over it, as it is all learning - as long as that is what I'm doing, not just flying around wasting everyones time doing something I already kinda know. You have to do the GA BAK, but it isn't that hard, I found mine easier than the RAA one! Just understand the loading systems and Performance charts, as that is the only real thing that is different. You'll have to do the PPL Syber exam, which is a big rip off of money, but just one of those things you have to do. Hope you get something sorted, once you do the minimum requirements, it's up to your competency and if the CFI is happy that you'll pass the big test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T500 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi Adrian I had the same prob it comes under REG 5.84(2) GA flight schools just have to look it up (and then get a slap in the face for not knowing it) I had same prob with a school in WA they had no idea quote from casa its up to the CFI to determinat that a person satisfies the day VFR syllabus reg 5.83 Completed does include 2hrs instruments under the hood works out to around 5hrs the killer is if you havent flown their a/c before they put you through the whole trg program again (15hrs min) at $287hr to hire the plane plus $110 hr for the instructor and $67 for landing fees worked it out a rough $7000 :( Hince I only did 2hrs gave the rest away Ill stick to RAA unless I can find a GA school that runs Jab/gazelles as GA a/craft Ill be there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi all, tomo that is the problem, I don't understand the load system nor the performance charts. other than that I think I am quiet competent. hence the reason for wanting to do the BAK course. I thought 10 HRS would have been the go. See what tomorrow brings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSarcasm Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I'm converting to GA at the moment as well, although I haven't got the XC endo so I'll be doing all my navs in GA. Have you considered perhaps flying from your field to wherever you learn? I know hire fees might push the cost up, but it might be about the same as 3.5 hours each way of petrol! My school, Lilydale Flying School, are a dual GA/RA school so they've got lots of experience with the conversion, plus if you did decide to fly to the lessons you could probably easily pop round the north of Melbourne from ballarat to lilydale. They do have a 172 (and maybe a 152, I'm not sure) but do most of the GA training in Warriors. If you want more info, feel free to PM me :) $287hr to hire the plane plus $110 hr for the instructor and $67 for landing fees The question that comes to my mind is, how on earth do they have any customers with prices like that?! Wouldn't the instructor fee be part of the dual hire fee for the aircraft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T500 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 thats what i thought but no hence why i gave it away theres only two schols there so guess they can charge what they want theres about 20planes there and there always booked out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi all I have been doing some research today and am absolutely horrified at GA Instructors at the moment. they just want cash... (nothing we do not already know) I don't know any GA instructor who wants more than a reasonable wage (the minimum award, for example) and who wants their students to be safe and competent enough to pass the test.Perhaps the management (including CFI) at some schools have simply come up with a set syllabus for the conversion based on the lowest common denominator that they are aware of? I did find this but as the instructor pointed out it is wrong as the BAK and PPL Exam are on the wrong side of the line. He also says 20 odd hours ?http://www.rvac.com.au/files/flighttrainningstepsv3.pdf I suggest that you ask Dick Gower at RVAC Coldstream about that chart etc. Perhaps if we make enough noise in this thread Dick will join in the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi there,not after noise just want to know the facts. I agree that GA instructors just want to make a wage but after todays talking it is obviouse they (ok I should not put them all in the same pot) are only after money and I don't think that most GA's don,t know how to convert RAA to GA. My major point here is how some schools are just out to make money. 30 hours. I would like to see someone justify this...... only 10 hours off the minimum of PPL ? I have spoken to Dick and will be hopefully seeing him tomorrow. he is one of 2 schools I mentioned earlier that have dibs on my training at the moment. Would like to actually see CASA and the RAA work together to come up with a training solution for us to work to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Gower Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hello Adrian. Here is the story in converting from RA to a PPL. Although you must meet the minimum experience requirements, the usual problem is getting up to the required standard to pass the PPL flight test. The best guide to what is ahead is the CASA flight test form (077) available from the website. It shows the boxes that have to be ticked. There is also an achievement record (form 1024) which shows the elements. A PPL requires a minimum of 40m hours which includes: 5 hours of solo consolidation 5 hours solo x-country including two landings at remote aerodromes 2 hours minimum of IF All of the RA experience counts towards these minimums (CAR 5.76(3) and 5.84(2)) but I emphasise that they are minimums and it is really all about reaching the required standard rather than just having the minimum experience. If your NAV training was such that you were competent OCTA (as it should be) then it is only a matter of becoming competent in controlled airspace. The three elements of this are: D airspace (once called GAAP such as Moorabbin) Radar C airspace (entering the CTR from the cruise) Non-radar which in this area can be covered by Essendon or Albury entries. It is unrealistic to expect to do the whole process in the minimum times. I have only seen this once in over 50 years in this industry. It would be very brave to categorically state how many hours would be involved because of the variables of the student and the standard of the previous training, but it would be unrealistic to expect less than 10 hours and would not be outrageous to go as high as 30 in some cases. The usual deficient areas are PFLs and crosswinds but sometimes we find uncorrected faults like a wheel-barrowing tendency, poor vigilance, substandard knowledge of procedures and the like. RA aircraft are generally more demanding in turbulences so it is usual to find that the basic skills are there. Whatever you do Adrian be careful of rip-offs and never pay up front. So the RA to GA process is basically this: [*]get a student pilot licence and ARN [*]get an ASIC or AVID (explanation at rvac.com.au/frequently-asked-questions you need one or the other) [*]pass the BAK [*]pass the PPL exam [*]get your student licence endorsed for the GA aircraft type which means being able to demonstrate proficiency in the basics such as PFLs, crosswinds etc. [*]pass the GFPT but you may elect to bypass this and go straight to the NAVs to complete the PPL. (after the GFPT you still only have a student licence.) [*]get up to standard with the NAVs Once you are considered competent you are recommended for the PPL flight test which includes an oral and a flying component. You then get a PPL with the addition of the above airspace endorsements as applicable. The flow chart at http://www.rvac.com.au/files/flighttrainningstepsv3.pdf gives the general idea but does not correctly show that the PPL exams are required when converting to GA. We will correct this when we work out how. I hope that helps. Regards, Dick Gower CFI RVAC Coldstream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSarcasm Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi Dick, Does the 5 hours of solo consolidation include RA solo time, or is it solo consolidation in the GA aircraft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hi Dick hope to get out there to see you tomorrow. you are right and this is what I am trying to get round is the people trying to ripp me off, 40 hrs minimum and my hours don't count... for me this is like buying a house, I am after the best deal but don't want to buy a **** heap hence my poking and prodding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Gower Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Yes, that problem sounds familiar Adrian. You need to get the SPL application started ASAP as it takes some time. If you bring the application form we can do the CFI part of this for you and it does not obligate you to any particular school. Don't forget top bring the barrow load of documents for proof of ID etc. We can also provide you with the info on what boxes we have to tick for teh PPL. We are running a competition and barbeque lunch on Sunday if you want to make it then. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 I suggest that you ask Dick Gower at RVAC Coldstream about that chart etc. Perhaps if we make enough noise in this thread Dick will join in the discussion. Come visit, anyway. We are a very friendly lot at Coldstream and there is a good mix of RA and VH activity at the field. If you decide to fly in remember to phone RVAC ph 9739 1406 first for a briefing on local procedures. kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 If it makes you feel any better, I have never done a GA to RAA conversion (on jabiru's) that took any less than 10 hours. Cessna's and the like are designed to be easy to fly, once GA guys jump in a jab or similar, they realise that the aircraft is flying them. It takes some time to get things happening. oh, and they are normally shocked to find out that the pedals on the floor aren't footrest's. Don't be disheartened. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naremman Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 If it makes you feel any better, I have never done a GA to RAA conversion (on jabiru's) that took any less than 10 hours. Cessna's and the like are designed to be easy to fly, once GA guys jump in a jab or similar, they realise that the aircraft is flying them. It takes some time to get things happening. oh, and they are normally shocked to find out that the pedals on the floor aren't footrest's. Don't be disheartened. cheers Yikes motzartmerv. Nobody achieving a GA to RAA transition in sub 10 hours? I have just been down that path with Phil Butherway, who is based at Beverly in WA and has joint GA/RAA Instructor ratings. I had nailed the J160 to Phil's satisfaction inside 3 hours, and completed the 5 hour requirement in a Foxbat to provide a contrast. I must admit having a good amount of Victa Airtourer time was a decided advantage. It would also be appropriate to give Phil the highest acknowlegment possible for his great work in the process. My daughter has just learn to fly RAA on a J160, and will at some stage be looking at making the RAA/GA transition in our Cessna 172. I will be fascinated to observe her progress, but will be stongly advocating that she talks to Phil very early on. The principle focus should always be that we aim to achieve a flying standard so that we can operate an aircraft safely. Hours are ostensibly irrelevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lewer Posted October 22, 2010 Author Share Posted October 22, 2010 Hi there everyone. I have been down to see Dick today and have nothing but good words for him and the crew down there. They helped me to no end and went through what was required from me. I will be sending off my paperwork on monday and as soon as it is all back I am packing the sleeping bag and heading down there and spending the week. I came away today with a better understanding of Load system Charlie and also take off performance charts for the PA-28, never before has anyone sat down with me and explained it properly, THEY DID. no question was to stupid nor did they treat me like a "bloody rec pilot" I feel sorry for them as they will now have me hanging off them looking for info the whole week I will be there..... I will admit on the way home and after spending all the day down there I have forgotten one thing of which I hope someone here can help me with. It is do do with the take off performance chart. the fourth section relates to "ambient wind component - KT" is this the headwind you have or the crosswind component ? I am sure it is the headwind you have but just need to check as I am a little unsure... to figure out headwind from a wind of 340 at 10 KTS rolling from RWY 36 I should fill in this area as a head wind of "9 KTS" and keep in mind I have a crosswind component of 3 KTS which the A/C is capable of IS THIS CORRECT ? if so I have the hang of this for this particular A/C. Cant wait to spend a week down there. I would like to thank Dick and the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Gower Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Ok ok DJP yes I will. There is one misleading aspect to the flow chart. All of the steps are correct for both the GA and RA side but, when describing how to go from the RA to GA licence, it is difficult, without totally mutilating the correct sequences, to show that the student must sit the GA exams. We thought of adding these exam boxes again to the dotted lines but that would duplicate them and really reduce the clarity of what we are trying to present. The latest idea is to cover this by a note but unfortunately this will mean a second page. Perhaps that might not really be a bad solution. Regards, Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Gower Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 A pleasure Adrian, I am sure that Ian, our instructor trainee, appreciated a live audience to practice on. Your workings are correct. 9 knots is the headwind component assuming you have allowed for the wind, if it was in a forecast, being in (t) whereas the RWY directions are in (m). The crosswind component is not an issue as long as it does not exceed the demonstrated maximum. Of course, if the wind is exactly at right angles to the RWY, the HWC is zero and the wind is all crosswind but, if it shifts in direction only slightly, it can become a significant tailwind which will change things dramatically. Good luck with the stack of applications. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Gower Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 The way I read the regs Darky it can be the RA time. Some solo consolidation in the GA aeroplane is not a bad idea as a confidence builder though. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Gower Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 That has a familar ring to it motzartmerv! (where did you get that name from?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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