Guest davidh10 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'll agree insofar as we need to break out of the current situation with Telstra stifling development, however whether NBN is the answer is something I am less convinced of - govts historically have a poor record with quasi commercial ventures such as this and I don't see this situation being any better. Indeed. Perhaps the split up of Telstra will help, but it will take time for the culture to change. It is a thorny question. I think we are on a better position than the US with all the "baby Bells". Due to that scheme they cannot launch a national service there, like their banking system where cheques are only good within a state boundary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Steve; the uncertainty is because of the cable quality, conductor size and signal loss limitations of ADSL. Every service has to have the cable pairs checked before they can determine if service can be delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Steve Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 Thx Dave. I new there would be a perfectly logical explanation ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 there is a lot of fine print that basically says its up to Telstra if we can actually get it too you and even then we cant garantee consistant speed. Yup, but the same fine print applies to any ISP, anywhere in the country; you don't know until you try. But there is no harm in actually trying; if Telstra says no, you stay exactly where you are; nothing paid and nothing lost... In fact, going with Internode, there is a second scenario: If you are currently on a RIM, instead of being directly linked to the exchange and can't get ADSL2 for that reason, there is a very good chance that through them you will be able to get 8 Mbit ADSL1 instead. This is exactly what happened to one of my colleagues when I convinced her to try and still a big improvement. Put your address into http://www.adsl2exchanges.com.au/ to see what you might expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'll agree insofar as we need to break out of the current situation with Telstra stifling development, however whether NBN is the answer is something I am less convinced of - govts historically have a poor record with quasi commercial ventures such as this and I don't see this situation being any better. I agree; they are not good at doing that, so I would rather see they didn't try to make it commercial and are already talking about privatisation. Just build it, let ISPs do the retail side of things and see what happens. Eventually selling off the wholesale network will create another commercial monopoly like Telstra... As far as I am concerned, Telstra, Optus and the other guys have had ample chance to deliver good broadband to the people and make lots of money, but they refused to do so. Telstra because they are a monopoly and can't be bothered; the others because Telstra is a monopoly and they can't compete. Time to declare a state of emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 .As far as I am concerned, Telstra, Optus and the other guys have had ample chance to deliver good broadband to the people and make lots of money, but they refused to do so. Telstra because they are a monopoly and can't be bothered; the others because Telstra is a monopoly and they can't compete. Time to declare a state of emergency. Telstra didn't fail to make lots of money I am sure... If you call what they do making money. I call it fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Telstra didn't fail to make lots of money I am sure... If you call what they do making money. I call it fraud. What, you don't think selling shares to Australia's retirees and then hiring a gringo to run the company in such a way as to only increase short term profitability is, ethical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Could it also be that the government is stopping Telstra from competing, and if "they" did do a large network for people which is/was better than the Optus's, IInet's etc.... That then those would be allowed to use the network Telstra made? The government are screwing EVERYONE because they are stopping open competition on a level playing field and telling the players what they can and can't do. Which is annoying considering the government are supposed to be there for the greater good of the people, not THEMSELVES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Both political parties have vested interests, Labor "deregulated" telecommunications to support the telecom unions and the liberals privatised Telstra to support their banking supporters. NBN co is the best option even if its not the cheapest, wireless can't carry the numbers to be viable, copper infrastructure is going to be just as expensive to maintain over time and is already at the end of its development cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Hi David I am pretty sure that the fibre in the customer service mains was originally for remote meter reading and logging but it was never actually implemented in a major way but for a long time and this is how their command and control of all remote sites and major substations has been done. I spent many years in the SEQEB now Energex as a elec fitter mechanic last few years doing high voltage switching and power system fault finding. The substations at the lower end 66kv and 33kv down are all remote controlled and monitored but it was done basicially through the copper with modems and now some radio controlled circuit breakers. Energex was always far behind Ergon and Powerlink when it came to fore thought with the system this is why now Ergon has the largest fibre network in Australia and it works fantastic Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I am in the radio business now for the last 22 years and deal with all types and modes be it voice data satellite wifi etc etc...the problem with the wireless network is its a finite resource in a much faster way than fibre. You can fit much more down a fibre than on any wireless network. As the wireless network loads up the speeds dramatically slow up...you can only fit so much water down a pipe. Wireless if fine for m ost remote areas if planned right. I am currently typing this while up at my farm about 300km north of Brisbane. I am using a prepaid telstra usb dongle but it is hooked to a external antenna as the telstra site is some 21km south of me but I am looking at thw tower so its great comms...I have full signal strength and it downloads at 400k a sec which adsl downloads at 150k a second so my speed is fanatastic and it doesnt really slow up that much as the Mt Goonanemen site doesn t get maxed out hardly ever so I cant complain out here but as time goes on that will change as more and more people infiltrate the area up here. I should ask my mate who is high up in Ergon if they have been putting the fibre in the SWER lines around here PS just finished slashing the 2 airstrips....they look great after a slashing :) Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 The government are screwing EVERYONE because they are stopping open competition on a level playing field and telling the players what they can and can't do. If the government had not told Telstra to let others into their exchanges and let them install their own ADSL equipment, I would have been posting this at 1.5 Mbps with a 500 MB monthly limit and paying over $100 for the privilege. I'm not sure if that is the kind of "level playing field" you really want to be pushing for. Telstra had every opportunity to build a new technology network that, unlike the copper PSTN, they wouldn't have had to share. They had a bit of a go with their failed, dead-end technology HFC network and gave up. They are their own worst enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 ........The government are screwing EVERYONE because they are stopping open competition on a level playing field..... . It seems so simple when written like that but please do tell how on earth "level Playing field" can be applie to a situation where after how many years of competition we still have Telstra owning 95% of the telecommunications infrastructure in Australia and just the end of life replacements of existing telstra infrastructure is probably twice or more what every other telco spends on its end of life and growth infrastructure. The only way a level playing field can really occur is if that infrastructure could be replicated so there was real competition. Of course Australia and businesses could never afford that... NBN has the ability to provide a more level playing field in the future and from my personal perspective if I have to pay as a citizen to create that true competition then show me where I sign! As Bas inferred Telstra only felt it appropriate to move on from 1.5Mbps down /256k up broadband when competition started to impact them. I dont know if many people even realise that the first generation ADSL product was perfectly capable of providing speeds up to 8mbps down from day 1 and that the 1.5/256 we had to put up with here was just because Telstra didnt want to offer it for marketing and backhaul capcity reasons. Uncapping of the artifical 1.5Mbps ADSL1 cap didnt occur until many years after it was implemented and generated Telstra a heap of dollars while stiffling uptake of technologies like VoIP which are impacting their voice segment seriously. Even today if you live in a location where the only infrastructure in the local exchange is Telstra you dont have the options of naked DSL, or using the old budget monthly phone plan that had cheap monthly rates and disgusting per call rates, and just having broadband with a VoIP service...No, in that case you must buy a dearer monthly plan..... Come on down NBN and get rid of the monopoly that is almost as strong today as it was when Optus first opened up shop. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Davidh 10 said I use 1.5Mbps ADSL at home, having moved from 10Mbps HFC in the city, and this is posted from a laptop tethered to the 3G network through my phone (gee, its heaps better than dial-up, even if SSH does drop out fairly often, due to marginal signal.) I live about 50 k's out of central Melbourne and 4 km from my local exchange. I had been connected to ADSL until recently and was then attracted to an offer of greater up/download capacity and wireless connectivity for my laptop. Initially, I was very disappointed as my connection dropped out all the time using the Samsung Elite USB connector supplied. I complained vociferously and was sent a new Next g Ultimate which has been great. No more drop-outs! I also used one of their pay-up-front wireless connections in 2009 when doing a trip Outback. This gave me access to AirServices and emails but was too expensive for regular use. Now it's cheap and very convenient. kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I had been connected to ADSL until recently and was then attracted to an offer of greater up/download capacity and wireless connectivity for my laptop. Did you also give up your home phone? I have friends who just did that; gave up their home phone and instead bought a pre-paid Three USB stick with 12GB for $150, valid for a year. It saves them $70/month and is all they need. But it's not for everyone; it's nowhere near enough for my requirements. It's really only for a bit of browsing and emailing. I'd probably blow your monthly limit in a day! Not to mention the slow uploads and latency would drive me nuts. (I regularly use NextG on my laptop tethered to my iPhone 4. Great for on the road for me...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Everyone in this country seems to forget that we are all getting screwed badly....Australia is one of only a handfull now where the consumer pays for the amount you dload or upload. Most every other country you pay for the speed of the connection NOT how much you dload from it in other words you pay for the size of the pipe not whats in it Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 That might have something to do with the Australian love of piracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Australia is one of only a handfull now where the consumer pays for the amount you dload or upload. True, but: http://www.internode.on.net/residential/adsl_broadband/easy_naked/ Many people are now able to get deals like this. Let's face it, 150GB is to 99% of the population identical to unlimited and the limits are only going up. And the price? I'd challenge you to find a significantly lower price for unlimited in most other places in the world! I'd say 50% of the population is being screwed right now because they fail to ask questions and shop around. The other 50% are being screwed because of Telstra's monopolising of their exchange, like myself. $110/month for 200 GB including $30 for the dial tone which I'd rather not have paid for. Still, I need it to make a living, so it's a small expense as far as I am concerned. I used to pay $160 for 100 GB just a few months ago... At the same time, when shopping around, you also need to watch out for deals too good to be true. Like 200 GB with an asterisk that says 40 GB peak and 160 GB off peak when off peak is between 1 and 4 am. Or "$50 including home phone", when home phone is actually VoIP that you can't use your fax or monitored alarm on if you wanted to. Caveat emptor. (One of the reasons I keep pushing Internode; they tell it like it is and don't try to trick you.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 That might have something to do with the Australian love of piracy Us and the rest of the world, mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 People being sick and not being able to have treatment is tragic. I can't comment on Fibre to the Node but think I have the solution to paying for extra health services... how about we just tax anyone earning more than say $250 000/year an extra 15%? Problem solved and still leaves a lot more in their pockets than the majority doing the hard work cleaning toilets and making coffee and maintaining the roads.... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest basscheffers Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 We have people in the Hunter Area with oesophageal cancer who have been told they will have to wait for two months before treatment can begin because the Government can't provide the resources. With or without the NBN, they wouldn't have gotten treatment sooner; healthcare simply isn't worth that much to those in power. It's much more fun spending money on killing people in Afghanistan than it is to brighten lives here. Makes Ms. Gillard and co feel much more important. What ever happened to Fibre to the Node? I though this was reasonably sensible and a bit of a surprise considering it came from the morons at Telstra. It came from the smart people at Telstra. If that plan had gone ahead, in one fell swoop, all the ISPs with their competing ADSL2 equipment in the exchanges would have had their direct connection to homes cut and Telstra would have been back to being a full-blown monopoly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 "With or without the NBN, they wouldn't have gotten treatment sooner; healthcare simply isn't worth that much to those in power. It's much more fun spending money on killing people in Afghanistan than it is to brighten lives here. Makes Ms. Gillard and co feel much more important." Even better... we stop spending money on killing people in foreign countries and their is the money for the flood relief and the NBN too... Sorry if I am going off thread... this one has been very informative.. it is so rare to read anything about the NBN without the political spin and BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopdangler Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 4G...I still haven't got a full grasp on 3G yet...I've got a new phone with all the bells and whistles that I haven't taken out of the box...happy using my old LG TU-500 which I find very handy to stick between my headset and ear and chat away to my hearts content if I want/need to... I am not a total dinosaur though as I am willing to try new things, for instance, in the bundle which included the new mobile phone, Telstra sent me the T-hub and handsets...what an absolute useless heap of garbage that turned out to be (and has been returned since). Lets hope the introduction of 4G is done with due care as it wouldn't be the first time telstra has stuffed up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Did you also give up your home phone? I have friends who just did that; gave up their home phone and instead bought a pre-paid Three USB stick with 12GB for $150, valid for a year. It saves them $70/month and is all they need. ) No... still have the home phone but will be selling up and moving in a few months and may change again then. I use my laptop at home and when away but have a desktop and ADSL for work. The laptop runs on my Auster's 12v system and gives me AirNav moving map as well as internet connectivity in the air. Very handy!!! kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 ...Telstra had every opportunity to build a new technology network that, unlike the copper PSTN, they wouldn't have had to share. They had a bit of a go with their failed, dead-end technology HFC network and gave up..... Actually, HFC was implemented as a one way network for Pay TV. Using it for Internet access came later and there were a number of candidate technologies examined in some detail, including "fibre to the node", "fibre to the curb" "fibre to the home" and radio for the last mile. In the end, the fibre to the home was the most desirable from a technical perspective, but cost of implementing yet another network (retro-running fibre along the HFC routes which already existed) and the cost of the "glass / electrical interfaces" (which were prohibitive in those days), meant that HFC won out as the most cost effective. It was always known that it would be an interim technology with a shorter life than fibre. Adding data to the Pay TV HFC network required replacement of all the one-way signal amplifiers with two way amplifiers and directional splitters. The noise aggregation of all the branches feeding back to the trunk combined with the fact that the uplink channels were below about 55MHz, meant that not all channels could be used due to ingress of man-made interference. Thus it was necessarily asymmetric in speed. Funnily enough it wasn't just Telstra that did this, but Optus as well. Despite Optus promising a high speed Internet service first, Telstra's was the first in operation in Australia. The US had ISPs using HFC prior to Australia, and it was that technology that was brought here. Further, a number of years after Australia had HFC ISPs up and running, I was the solution architect for a massive HFC ISP implementation in the UK (72 head ends, 9 server complexes), using the new at the time, DOCSIS standard. I think people sometimes forget that technology moves forward stepwise and while it is possible to produce, for example, phones that span very simple to high end new technology with commensurate cost differential, they can be offered to corresponding market segments. A national or even broad coverage network has to be affordable by a large percentage of the population to be viable. It also has to compete with other offerings. It is a bit like saying why didn't we jump from 1G to 4G mobile phone networks instead of going to 2G then 3G, and many people wouldn't be aware of the "half G increments" that were marketed as the next "G" (please don't confuse with the rather clever Telstra "Next G" branding). Commercial realities and technical ideals often sit in very different camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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