New heights new concerns

[Spriteah]

Hi all.

 

Now as we have new rules that allow raa pilots to venture upwards to 9500. I think there are issues that need to be consided. One is flight into ifr airspace. Second is icing. Third is transponders.

 

I personally thing the biggest concern is we place our selves more into harms way. We can now just enter into commercial traffic.

 

What do people think?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

See the prior thread.. on this topic for some thoughts from several of us. You are quite right. There are aspects that most people have not considered prior to the change of rules, and may not even think about. Most of the considerations have not been taught, as they were'nt legal until Easter.

 

 

[farri]

What do people think?

Whether or not it is in harms way depends on the individual situation!

 

It is for those who choose to fly at this altitude to be aware and understand the requirements involved!

 

Though the regs may now allow flight to 9500 amsl, they don`t require anyone to do so!

 

Frank.

 

 

[BPN]

Well said farri, It is not compulsory to fly at above 5000ft. For those of us that have the appropriate training

 

and a PPL the option is there if we wish to. In my view if your aircraft is equiped approriately and you have

 

a proper understanding of the requiements together with good situational awareness a flight above 5000ft

 

may actually be a safer option than under 5000 in certain circumstances.

 

Just my thoughts Bruce.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Odds and evens + 500ft

 

Transponder on 1200

 

Use AERA freq not CTAF [or both if you have the capacity]

 

Frank M

 

 

[Mazda]

I did a reply and it disappeared into cyberspace, here we go again.

 

I don't see the problem. The traffic density increases closer to the ground, so there is less traffic up there. Your TAS is higher, you can see further.

 

There is no icing without visible moisture (cloud). So if you are flying clear of cloud, as you must by law, you will not get airframe icing.

 

What is "IFR airspace"? The only IFR airspace I'm aware of is Class A, which is a fair bit higher than 9,500'. IFR aircraft mix with VFR aircraft right down to the ground. When there is a low freezing level, the lower performance types could be below 5000', or cruising at lowest safe. If you are particularly worried, stay off the IFR routes.

 

The chance of collision is minimal, they will be at even levels (or LSALT), you will be at 500' levels. Plus, you are in VMC so can look out of the window. When they are in VMC they are also looking out of the window, they have to, by law. When in IMC, they can't run into you because you won't be in cloud.

 

The only chance of a conflict is during climb or descent, such approaching an airport, and this can happen below 5000'. Before descent IFR aircraft always request traffic and they are given everything known. The only problem is if you hear the call they don't always say where they are, they just request traffic for descent, but some will say they are x miles to wherever, request traffic, so if that is near you, you have some warning. But if you are in the approach or departure airspace to an airport you must always be aware of arriving and departing traffic.

 

There is no transponder requirement above 5000', it is purely a factor of the class of airspace.

 

So what is the problem?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

maz is right, theres no "IFR" airspace problems, your not likely to ever be in "A".

 

Not flying in cloud will get rid of the icing problem.

 

 

[Tomo]

Just don't forget about Class E airspace, more so on the eastern side of Aus.

 

 

[Mazda]

Yes Tomo, Class E is an excellent class of airspace and it should not be forgotten!

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Interesting discussion.

 

I did my review last week and the CFI put me through the paces re the new levels. He showed me an erc low map with class E but mostly shown at fl 125 He couldnt find any at 8500 as previous erc lows showed. His point was that if flying in class E below 9500 the transponder is manditory and

 

set to 1200 and radio tuned area freq.

 

I guess that there would be some Class E below 9500 and totally agree with Mazda and Tomo's comments.

 

 

[Mazda]

In Australia a transponder is required in Class E, but it is not required in Class E anywhere else in the world. The requirement came into being due to a deal with the airlines. In lots of countries they have E down quite low, 1200 feet or so - but they don't need a transponder so the Class E is transparent for VFR. The transponder requirement is probably why our Class E is higher here.

 

Class E is generally from 8500' up but read your chart, there are exceptions - like Williamtown.

 

Class E is exactly the same as Class G for VFR (except in Australia we DO need a transponder). Once again, there is an exception because the Avalon controllers don't seem to want to let go, the E down there is more like D. I do hope this will be fixed soon because it isn't proper E. The Melbourne people might know - has this been fixed now or are they still treating the E like D?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...I guess that there would be some Class E below 9500 and totally agree with Mazda and Tomo's comments.

If you have any maps showing Albury, there's a Class E step at 8,500 which among other areas is over the top at Yarrawonga and Corowa, just as examples.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

There goes the neighbourhood...

 

 

[Allegro2000]

All,

 

We have been flying around Mudgee with mountains that are typically 3500 to 4000 feet all around us so the LSALT are 4500 to 5000. This means a minimum of 4500 ft typically 5500ft and depending upon track 6500. The new regs makes our situation valid. Yes as normal flight planing you must check freezing level, it has snowed here three this year so far so it is essential.

 

Allegro 2000

 

this is essential.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Freezing levels??...if your not in cloud, then this isnt an issue...

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I've been flying recently in -6 degrees with required separation from cloud. No ice issue. Damn cold on the fingers though, even double gloved. There would have been a greater chance of icing at a lower level while flying through light drizzle at 3 degrees, just below the cloud base. I certainly keep an eye on my engine revs and temperatures on descent in those scenarios.

 

 

[frank marriott]

I agree with Motz

 

Might be some confusion between airframe ice and Carb Ice, and the latter occurs well below freezing level.

 

Frank M

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Carby Ice is not what the forecast is referring to when it states a freezing level. Carby Ice can occur at just about any temperature/altitude. There are a few different types of airframe icing, ryme, hoar etc, but if your not flying in saturated air, ie cloud, airframe icing is not an issue...generally speaking..

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I agree with MotzMight be some confusion between airframe ice and Carb Ice, and the latter occurs well below freezing level.

 

Frank M

More confusion... latter occurs: "well below freezing altitude." and "well above freezing temperature". Unfortunately the term "level" can be taken to mean either altitude or temperature, subjectively, despite context.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, like i said, carby ice has nothing what so ever to do with any level, be it temp or altitude, and nothing to do with the freezing level.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Agree but my reference to below was meant to mean at altitude lower then the freeing level - ie has nothing to do with that level and CAN occur at much higher OAT temps. After rereading my post I can see how confusing it could be - I will try to be more concise next time I open my mouth.

 

I gained the impression that there might have been some confusion - if not then all is good.

 

 

[farri]

For anyone interested!!! http://www.gremline.com/index_files/page0032.htm

 

Anticipating Carburettor Icing

 

Now that we know why carburettor icing occurs we need to examine when it will be most likely to occur. The amount of carburettor icing encountered depends on the relative humidity of the outside air. The higher the relative humidity, the more likely is the occurrence of carburettor icing, because of the amount of water vapour in the air. The actual temperature of the air has very little to do with the risk of carb icing. For example, air having a relative humidity of 50% at +10C will have a relative humidity of 100% (saturated) at 0C. Any further drop in air temperature will cause condensation to take place below freezing point, and ice will form. In general, the lower the temperature of the outside air, the smaller will be the amount of moisture it contains. That is, cold air is dry --- and warm air is moist. Therefore, you are more likely to suffer carburettor icing when flying in clear, cloudless warm air than you are in clear, cloudless cold air. That is an important point not always appreciated by private pilots. Perverse as it may seem, you are more likely to suffer carb icing on a warm day than on a cold day.

 

If the relative humidity is high (i.e. the dewpoint and OAT are close together) large amounts of ice may form in the carburettor when no visible moisture is present. This can occur in outside air temperatures as high as +25C to +30C, although dewpoints above +20C are unlikely in North West Europe. If the overall temperature drop in the carburettor due to the mechanisms discussed above is greater than the OAT, then carb icing is likely. That is, carb icing can be encountered when the OAT is as high as +25C if the air is close to saturation and the temperature drop inside the carburettor exceeds 25C. There are some types of carburettor having a possible temperature drop of 45C.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Mazda]

I've had carby icing on the ground, and yes, carby icing happens in the tropics.

 

But that has nothing to do with freezing level and airframe icing.

 

 

[facthunter]

Ice requires water (as a liquid or vapour) and a temperature below freezing to form The inside of a carburettor is a place where the local temperature may be below freezing in OAT's up to around 40 degrees. As Farri says. warm air can carry lots of water vapour. Conversely, you could be flying at the south pole and be very unlikely to get any icing as the air there is some of the driest in the world. ( reputedly drier than the Sahara). Very cold air is very dry air. You can fly through snow and none of it will stick to the aircraft.(generally) The worst situation is if the airframe is below freezing and you encounter supercooled water drops. Sometimes water will not freeze even though it is below zero till it encounters a surface to react to. ( Similar to cloud formation where you need condensation nuclei ( dust) for the water drops to form. Flying in an airmass that is below freezing has no hazards till we intruduce the extra factor of water. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

How is this criticaltheory being presented to new and existing Certificate holders?

 

You can't just open the gate and say "Be careful" any more