Guest rocketdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Just a thought from one who has screwed up quite recently ..... Any responsible pilot (and I reckon that is 99% of us) is riddled with self doubt and an internal questioning as he / she comes to terms with the fact that they were at the controls, they were in charge, when it all went pear shaped. They KNOW they screwed up. They don’t need to be told by others who weren’t there. They know that “if only I had done this instead” or “why did I take this decision” or whatever ..... . They know that at least a part of the accident was down to them in the circumstances. And they have relived the accident many many times in the dead of the night “could / should I have done this or that instead” etc ..... So ...just a personal thing, but for one, I’d like to see a little more thought for the pilot, a bit more kindness in some of the comments ....... It would be nice if the “he was a Dead Head” and “she screwed up big time” type of comments could be kept to yourselves. They don’t help anyone. Nor do they, in my opinion, enhance the reputation of the poster making that sort of comment .... Sorry about the rant, but .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherk Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Just a thought from one who has screwed up quite recently ..... Any responsible pilot (and I reckon that is 99% of us) is riddled with self doubt and an internal questioning as he / she comes to terms with the fact that they were at the controls, they were in charge, when it all went pear shaped. They KNOW they screwed up. They don’t need to be told by others who weren’t there. They know that “if only I had done this instead” or “why did I take this decision” or whatever ..... . They know that at least a part of the accident was down to them in the circumstances. And they have relived the accident many many times in the dead of the night “could / should I have done this or that instead” etc ..... So ...just a personal thing, but for one, I’d like to see a little more thought for the pilot, a bit more kindness in some of the comments ....... It would be nice if the “he was a Dead Head” and “she screwed up big time” type of comments could be kept to yourselves. They don’t help anyone. Nor do they, in my opinion, enhance the reputation of the poster making that sort of comment .... Sorry about the rant, but .... What ever happened to..."treat others as you would wish to treated" ? Many criticisms are indeed more reflective of the criticizer than the criticized 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I don't think pointing out the responsibilities of all of us and the acceptance that we have responsibilities/ duties as the pilot in command, is stating any more than what is a fact. No-one is trying.( well I can only speak for myself) to rub anyone's nose in it and I'm sure that the pilot knows it as well as anybody, but I'm not sure the "everybody makes mistakes" thought music is appropriate either. IF we pass it off that way nothing changes and people go on getting hurt and we ALL run the risk of losing our privileges. I don't state this from a position of " I don't make mistakes' myself either (lest that be alleged). but these incidents need to be evaluated in the hope that the safety performance awareness level will get better. If you fly an aeroplane and are not carefull someone will get hurt. That is the nature of flying, let's face it. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I feel your pain but sometimes the outcomes are going to be discussed and pilot error is going to be the focus. As a learner pilot, I find the discussions about accidents helpful. I am now a lot more aware of the consequences of poor judgement, that includes being declared incompetent by peers after an incident. Its one part of the flying community you can't escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Life isn't like that RD, this is a public forum, and what's being said here is no different to what will have been said in the last couple of days on airfields right around Australia, just with the expletives removed. In this case, when the person is walking through the fairgrounds after almost killing two children and cracks an Al Quaeda joke, best he lives with what's coming his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rocketdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Life isn't like that RD, this is a public forum, and what's being said here is no different to what will have been said in the last couple of days on airfields right around Australia, just with the expletives removed. Hi TP ... agreee that we all discuss these things amongst ourselves, but when we say "what a fool he / she was to do that" we are not usually overheard by the person concerned ....... If we were in their prescence, we usually would not say it. We would be more polite. And on this forum, the accident pilot IS in our presence and it is my opinion that we should all remember that. Not to say we should not discuss the facts as known about the accident . In fact we should, but when we start making disparaging remarks, we are going beyond the facts. And FT .... glad you find discussing about what went wrong to be helpful ... I always have and still do. but being publically declared incompetant has got nothing to do with avoiding future incidents and accidents. In my opinion, its a bit like kicking someone when they are down. Accidents are unexpected consequences from usually a series of actions or inactions. Otherwise they would be called deliberates. I would hope that the accident pilot gets debriefed by our ops manager in the way that a flying school student or gliding club member would be by the CFI. (Thinking about it, that did not happen for me .... perhaps thats something for RAA to consider seeing as many of us are private owners .....) And Nev, not talking about avoiding pointing out responsibilities etc ...... the more we can persuade pilots that THEY ARE responsible for their own, their passenger's and the public's safety, the better, and the more likely that we will see an increased level of what I think of as "airmanship". But to make personal comments about competance is not helpful, IMO. cheers everyone RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J170 Owner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Human nature at its best. Everybody likes to speculate, provide suggestions, critisize. What would be nice if the pilots who were at the controls posted their comments instead. There have been a few incidents over the last year that we still do not know what happened apart from the rubbish we read in the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 In this case, when the person is walking through the fairgrounds after almost killing two children and cracks an Al Quaeda joke, best he lives with what's coming his way. It is easy to be judgemental after seeing a media report where the person appears to be shrugging off the severity of his/her actions (e.g Al Quaeda comment). In reality this is a mechanism to help cope with the stress and trauma affecting the person from what he/she has just caused and is usually deeply regretted at a later date. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I hope it will be KG because it wasn't a report, I saw the grin on his face when he said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Media report/Video all the same to me. The grin and the laughter is all part of the coping process 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 No David, I searched on Reuters to make sure. He dredged up a previous conversation, and he didn't have to pick that one. If the footage showed a direct response to a Journalist'a question, I'd agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 It is about how you say it, not necessarily about what you say. "He was a dead head" is hardly constructive criticism, and you won't find in any flight training manual the phrase "Don't be a dead head". Maybe it is being politically correct (perish the thought!) but everything typed here is open for the world to read..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 We need to remember accidents don't happen because of one mistake (the type of mistakes we all make every day), rather they follow of a pattern of several smaller mistakes compounding together. Experience is about recognising those patterns and stopping them, before they have a chance to kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 RD I was hoping that I wasn't one of the targets of your post. but we can ALL gain from this . I have spent a lot of time around pilots over the years and frequently, they are very quick to believe that the pilot involved was the cause of the outcome. They wouldn't like to be judged so rapidly if the situation was reversed, I'm pretty sure. There's probably a good psycholgical reason for this. It has to do with ego and a bit of denial.. "If I had been flying it I would have done ABC, and it would have been alright" Maybe so and maybe NOT so. EVERYONE likes to think that they are good pilots. Remember GOOD pilot's are the ones that don't put themselves in the situation where they have to be EXCEPTIONAL pilots to get out of it. This takes experience to evaluate the environment and an element of effective training. It also needs the other ingredient ATTITUDE.. You have to try to make each flight the safest possible. This is the safety culture that we talk about, Without quality safety reports on incidents, we miss out on a lot of benefit from learning from the mistakes of others. That's the cheapest way to learn The stuff you posted was really good in this regard RD. I do appreciate the soul searching and honesty of your post.( The one about your mishap) We all want the safest outcomes. I wouldn't regard the terrorist association comment as much more than a response to shock. Plenty of people get verbal diahorrea in such circumstances. The less you say, the better..Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 RD I see where you are coming from and do agree - only up to a point though. Gratuitous insults are not acceptable and even counter productive, however as one of the "offenders" in using the term screwed up, I was addressing my comments not to the pilot who is doubtless all to aware of the fact, but to previous posters who seemed to be pushing the line that "this could happen to any one of us". Granted we can all make mistakes, but I am uncomfortable with a too easy acceptance of poor airmanship. I strongly suspect that if the pilot had missed the wheel and a video of his low flight over the crowd had been posted, the majority of forum members would be baying for his blood and using stronger terms of disapproval. Nev probably summed it up best in his first post on the subject. I haven't been back to read your account of your own mishap again, however an overriding impression that I took away from reading it in the first place, was that you seemed to be shouldering blame for the incident, even where there seemed to be, to me anyway, some question marks over the role the bent axle may have played. I suspect that your own experience may still be too fresh for a truly objective view on this latest accident - and I mean that in a positive sense in that you may be overidentifying with the hurt the pilot may be feeling. Rgds Carl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rocketdriver Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hi Spin Thank you for your kind words re shouldering the blame, but, you know, I think have come to terms with my prang now ... and recognising my own (personally hard to accept) errors of misjudgement etc was really the route to accepting the reality of my responsibility as PIC .... Nev is right "EVERYONE likes to think that they are good pilots". I certainly thought I was a good pilot .... not invulnerable you know, although that (Dangerous) attitude has been present from time to time in my past ....luckily I grew out of it without damaging anyone or anything! And the elements of ego and denial ARE a block to the process of the acceptance of responsibility ...... Taking your second point, its also true IMHO that this, or something like this could happen to anyone of us. Accidents are not deliberates. (although I think you could argue a case where a deliberate breach of safety regulations is involved). If we follow Nev's advice ("You have to try to make each flight the safest possible.")then we do minimise accidents .... but ...... we are all human and we all do make mistakes ...... I absolutely agree that "airmanship" is the key. Once the basic skill of flying is achieved, I think it is what makes the difference between the good and the great pilots. cheers RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Turboplanner the way you talk about Pauls comments I presume you were at the air field/fair? Is that correct or are you just an observational expert? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Please don't tell this forum that you are making your judgements off media only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Commenting to RD first post ... I agree we need to check our response and our personal impacts on others in our drive to learn more about an incident. Offering respect and treating people with dignity is not just about minimising the psychological harm to an individual.... it also has a lot to do with our need for an open culture and safety, which we as pilots need to foster. I think it's important that we provide an environment to allow people involved in accidents to speak openly and freely about what really happened so that we all learn and not make the same mistakes. Damaging self-confidence or heightening regret of those involved in an incident will only make individuals reluctant to be open and we all end up the poorer because of inappropriate comments. Cheers vev 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Turboplanner the way you talk about Pauls comments I presume you were at the air field/fair? Is that correct or are you just an observational expert? Sorry, I missed this one. Sprite, this information came from Reuters, one of the most reliable information sources in the world, with no axe to grind, the vision was crystal clear, and so was the audio. I got better vision and audio than I would have on most of the fairground. He didn't say it at the airfield. I wasn't an observational expert, I reported my own reaction. I haven't offered any opinion as to the cause of this crash; with ATSB getting involved we will get one soon enough. I did notice that several people offered unqualified psychological analyses about the footage though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Sorry, I missed this one.with no axle to grind, . I presume that was a typo error and you mean't 'with no axe to grind' Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Thanks Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 "this information came from Reuters, one of the most reliable information sources in the world, with no axe to grind" Ahahahaha.... I love it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I think it's important that we provide an environment to allow people involved in accidents to speak openly and freely about what really happened so that we all learn and not make the same mistakes.vev Absolutely agree in principal,however, in the litigious society that we have become, would speaking openly and freely and admitting fault to causing an accident, be leaving the pilot open to litigation? I dare say it would! Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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