Powerin Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 You often see the claim (as I did again today) that the reason Jabirus feature as often as they do in faults and accidents is because their are so many of them. So I thought I'd do the exercise and work out how many there actually are on the RAAus register. I did this by copying the aircraft register from the RAAus website to a spreadsheet and sorting and counting by manufacturer. The register is a bit inconsistent in how aircraft names are entered so the counts may not be exactly right. And the verdict is...Jabirus are by far the most popular aircraft with 755 out of 3414 on the register or 22%. Other manufacturers of note are: Airborne (trikes) - 234 Aerochute (powered parachutes) - 215 Tecnam - 132 ICP (mostly Savannahs) - 125 Thruster - 115 Skyfox - 105 Austflight (Drifters) - 98 Howard Hughes (Lightwings) - 97 Zenith/Zodiac - 76 Aeroprakt (Foxbats) - 68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Although I suspect impossible to obtain - hours flown by type would be interresting as well. FrankM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 not a lot of drifters left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted April 15, 2012 Author Share Posted April 15, 2012 not a lot of drifters left I don't know enough about the different manufacturers...but I see now there are another dozen or so Drifters listed under Maxair as the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 OK since we are looking at numbers, I'd like to know how many of those 755 jabs have a no-damage history, and how many are still on their original engine ?.( say one's with less than 1000hrs TT)...I do recall the Jab factory making a big to do about producing their 1000th jab some years back, so with say another six years production I'm guessing at maybe another 800 or so, which would put us at about 1500 units ??............so how many are still around, and how many have been written off due to accidents, and how many have required a major factory rebuild after ending up on their back ? Either way, it'd be my guess that all those numbers would be much higher compared to other trainer types used in this country........................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheyenne Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 It is very very rare that a jabiru is writen off, I only know of one that could not be repaired due to the egg shell cracks right through the hull. I have recovered some of the Jabiru's for repairs that the pilots's have had the miss fortune to damage either on landing or taking off. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKW Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 We wouldn't want to miss a golden opportunity to bag the jabs! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIRVTW Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 What about Jabirus not only flying in Australia but world wide? Its like ford or Holden I use to repair more Holdens than Fords when I had my workshop. Some would say Fords are better others say Holdens. Me personaly I think all cars are heaps of S#@t thats why I sold my workshop & started repairing aircraft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 And there are Jabs out there on the export market, including engines in a number of Savannahs in Denmark. Given the hours being put into Jabs in training facilities it is not surprising that we hear more about Jabiru incidents. More landings, more take-offs, more hours all add up. It is a pity the RAA stats are unable to allow anything other than back of a (small) bus ticket analysis. EDIT + The important metric is incidents per hour per landing. If the bird is sitting in the hanger idle, nothing will happen to it til the hangar falls on it because of age. Steve, thanks for your little exercise. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I am not bagging Rotax or Jabs or supporting either In the last 3 weeks more Rotax powered accidents occurred then Jab powered aircraft Guessing whether was it was the engine or the pilot is not helpful. It is like Ford V Holden before the other imports arrived. I am not biased to either but I like facts not unsupported opinions. I read and digest everyone's opinion but I delete any biased opinion as I don't thing they are helpful The more posts about what one has experienced is great but "I have heard" means nothing to me. I am able to to be convinced by facts but not unsupported opinion One might think of the opinion that Maj and I are at extreme differences of opinion but having been friends for about 10 years? and we agree when talking - maybe both he and myself loose something in the written form. What to you think Ross? FrankM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted April 15, 2012 Author Share Posted April 15, 2012 I was just presenting the numbers, not taking sides. I wasn't sure it was accurate to say there are more incidents etc with Jabs because there are so many more of them...but looking at the figures I have to say it probably is a valid argument. Looking through the register I get the impression that there might be a similar number of Rotax four stroke engines to Jab engines. Even in my list above if you count the Tecnams, most of the Savvies, Foxbats and a fair few of the Lightwings, Zeniths and Skyfoxes you would have well over 300 Rotax 912s. With the RAAus register only (publicly) having rego, date, manufacturer and model, there are very few stats you can get from it. I think RAAus keeps a record of pilot hours flown don't they? But not hours of aircraft types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Powerin I agree facts are facts and the more the better. Because I own one type I am more then prepared to accept that I made a bad decision [as has happened previously in my life] but at this stage the facts are inclusive in my opinion. The more facts without personal bias can only be encouraged FrankM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Would the RAA know the number of accidents for each model? < that would be definitive answer to how good/bad the jabs really are. When you consider that nearly all the other planes use Rotax its going to be a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted April 15, 2012 Author Share Posted April 15, 2012 Very roughly, counting the aircraft that I'm pretty certain would have Rotax 912s, I get 690. That's not counting any models that would almost certainly have a proportion of Rotaxes such as the Zeniths. I've only counted the 27 Lightwings that have 912 in their model number (do any Lightwings have Jab engines?). So there are probably several hundred more 912/4s and a similar number of extra Jab engines that are not in a Jab airframe. My impression is that there would be similar numbers of 912/4 and Jab engines but there are no definitive stats to back that up. I guess the majority of the 2 strokes would be Rotax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushpilot Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 And there are Jabs out there on the export market, including engines in a number of Savannahs in Denmark.Given the hours being put into Jabs in training facilities it is not surprising that we hear more about Jabiru incidents. More landings, more take-offs, more hours all add up. It is a pity the RAA stats are unable to allow anything other than back of a (small) bus ticket analysis. EDIT + The important metric is incidents per hour per landing. If the bird is sitting in the hanger idle, nothing will happen to it til the hangar falls on it because of age. Steve, thanks for your little exercise. Col Spot on, Col. Between us and our sister school at Orange, we have 7 Jabs in service with TT around 5,500 hours and over 14,000 landings.. You dont get anything approaching those figures with 'weekend warrior' aircraft.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Maybe its a self fulfilling prophecy, the bad Jabirus blow up and scare the owners of flying them, usually going from owner to owner spreading fear and loathing about through bolts and valves. The good Jabirus just keep on flying and the owners never really understand why so many people don't trust them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 A pilot I have known for years has always rubbished the Jabirus and not just because of reliability issues, but he has always added...."However if one came up for sale at a very good price, I would buy it". Makes you think doesn't it. Alan. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 It makes you wonder doesn't it. Just reading all those stories of through bolts failing in circuits is enough to put me off flying in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKW Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 It makes you wonder doesn't it. Just reading all those stories of through bolts failing in circuits is enough to put me off flying in one. Yet the number of fatal accidents in Jabs is so low when compared to the other side of the ledger. It makes you wonder doesn't it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Fatal accidents aren't the problem, as you aren't left with injuries to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKW Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Fatal accidents aren't the problem, as you aren't left with injuries to deal with. FT Are you suggesting that there are more injuries in Jab accidents than other types of aircraft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 no I am saying an accident where you get injured is worse than one where you get killed(no regrets). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 no I am saying an accident where you get injured is worse than one where you get killed(no regrets). Jasus FT! That's in the running for being one of the most pessimistic viewpoints on any thing that I've ever heard. Guess it's no good me trying to sell you a sickness & accident policy? cheers Riley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I wouldn't fly a Jab at night, but just about any other time I will if I know the history of the engine, and have a look at it myself. You do get the odd lemon unfortunately, and I'm not saying they are perfect. But they are a lot of fun and simple. Flew a J430 up north the other day, it was a sweat model, 120kts at 3000rpm and averaged 25ltrs hour at 8500ft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'm sorry but dead you are someone else's problem. injured: you have to deal with it and everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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