Temora crash - lessons

[turboplanner]

I've started this thread to avoid the previous thread splitting and leave the condolences untainted by speculation.

 

With what is now an unacceptable level of lives lost, we need to educate ourselves to a point where we can reduce this carnage without the horrible trauma to our loved ones, and without any disrespect to the deceased and his family and friends.

 

At this early point my observations indicate that the area might be crab holey, but it seems a forced landing could have been successful.

 

That would leave the possibilities of weather, mechanical failure and medical issue?

 

 

[Teckair]

It is a bit hard to say much at this stage with so little known about what happened, being a new trike mechanical failure seems less likely, with the fire most likely did not run out of fuel, weather would have to be really bad to prevent him from reaching Temora airstrip 2 or 3 klms away.

 

What I find to be a continuing disappointment these deadly crashes are often occurring on what appears to be fairly clear terrain where a emergency landing or at the worst a low impact crash landing should have been possible.

 

Richard.

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

As a general observation I would say that practice forced landings out of the circuit area are one of the least best performed exercises by many .... and truth be told, myself included ...... probably because they are usually not practiced often enough. There is a lot going on and an urgent time pressure on the PIC, especially if the failure occurs below, say, 2,500 ft over unfamiliar territory ...... and much worse in the case of a real engine failure. One thing I have promised myself is to do more glide approaches in different wind conditions .... at least that way, that part of the equation should become second nature .....

 

cheers

 

RD

 

 

[turboplanner]

Knowing the person, I think this one is leaning towards something like a heart attack or structural failure. He was flying along with a mate.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Knowing the person, I think this one is leaning towards something like a heart attack or structural failure. He was flying along with a mate.

I don't like guessing these things but I'm sure that is a fairly high mast/transmission pole I can see in a couple of the photos so that may have been the initial problem or a compounding problem for an emergency landing.

 

I have a real phobia about wires strung around the landscape, and especially SWIR lines which are so commonly strung in rural areas between widely spaced high poles.

 

More than 30 years ago I was a much younger pilot when I had a rather scary experience. I was driving an RF5 Fournier motor glider along Lake Eildon from Bonney Doone towards the boat club when I saw a couple of little microlights on floats down below me and obviously having heaps of fun. I thought I'd join them.

 

I began a fairly steep descent from around 3500' and focussed my attention on the littlies. At some point greater than 2000' from memory, I caught a momentary glimpse of a bunch of bloody great cables in an indecently close proximity to my wingtips as I passed them. These cables are suspended across the lake, at a height of around 200' AWL at their lowest point when the lake is full. They run from towers on the mountain tops on either side of the lake and the span is probably a couple of kms or more. I was lucky http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1357105/ar-2009-041_avoidableaccidents-lowlevelflying.pdf more at http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/aair/aair200400437.aspx.

 

Just how lucky came home to me some years later when I heard of another wire strike incident involving the same RF5... a more tragic result this time http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1990/aair/aair199001174.aspx I knew the guy well.

 

So I have a real phobia about wires and anything resembling low flying that might bring me into contaact with one of them. I'm happy just being an old pilot.

 

kaz

 

There are bold pilots

 

And there are old pilots

 

But there are no bold old pilots ...

 

 

[Louis Moore]

I don't like guessing these things but I'm sure that is a fairly high mast/transmission pole I can see in a couple of the photos so that may have been the initial problem or a compounding problem for an emergency landing.I have a real phobia about wires strung around the landscape, and especially SWIR lines which are so commonly strung in rural areas between widely spaced high poles.

 

More than 30 years ago I was a much younger pilot when I had a rather scary experience. I was driving an RF5 Fournier motor glider along Lake Eildon from Bonney Doone towards the boat club when I saw a couple of little microlights on floats down below me and obviously having heaps of fun. I thought I'd join them.

 

I began a fairly steep descent from around 3500' and focussed my attention on the littlies. At some point greater than 2000' from memory, I caught a momentary glimpse of a bunch of bloody great cables in an indecently close proximity to my wingtips as I passed them. These cables are suspended across the lake, at a height of around 200' AWL at their lowest point when the lake is full. They run from towers on the mountain tops on either side of the lake and the span is probably a couple of kms or more. I was lucky http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1357105/ar-2009-041_avoidableaccidents-lowlevelflying.pdf more at http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/aair/aair200400437.aspx.

 

Just how lucky came home to me some years later when I heard of another wire strike incident involving the same RF5... a more tragic result this time http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1990/aair/aair199001174.aspx I knew the guy well.

 

So I have a real phobia about wires and anything resembling low flying that might bring me into contaact with one of them. I'm happy just being an old pilot.

 

kaz

 

There are bold pilots

 

And there are old pilots

 

But there are no bold old pilots ...

 

I lived in Mansfield for years (family still does) and have done many a "trip around the block" looping from Mansfield, out over eildon to bonnie done and back via the highway to mansfield again. I know those now infamous wires very well, problem with them is there actually a lot higher than you would expect to find wires. It would be easy to clip them while not actually flying low over the water, so it is doubtful pilots are even looking for them!!! Nothing like that false sense of security!

 

 

[kaz3g]

I lived in Mansfield for years (family still does) and have done many a "trip around the block" looping from Mansfield, out over eildon to bonnie done and back via the highway to mansfield again. I know those now infamous wires very well, problem with them is there actually a lot higher than you would expect to find wires. It would be easy to clip them while not actually flying low over the water, so it is doubtful pilots are even looking for them!!! Nothing like that false sense of security!

I was somewhat surprised as Ii reread the PA28 report that they said the wires were only 133' AWL. I guess that is measured when the lake is full, but Ive seen that lake down way more than 100' which makes a heck of a difference.

 

kaz

 

 

[alf jessup]

Knowing the person, I think this one is leaning towards something like a heart attack or structural failure. He was flying along with a mate.

Turbs,

 

I believe it was one of the new arrow wings on the trike as 2 new arrow winged 912's were getting ferried back to Yarrawonga, hope it wasn't a failure.

 

Alf

 

 

[campslive]

Turbs,I believe it was one of the new arrow wings on the trike as 2 new arrow winged 912's were getting ferried back to Yarrawonga, hope it wasn't a failure.

 

Alf

Good point Alf and yes they were both the new Arrow Wings,

but with David having over 270 hrs TT or more i am leaning more to health or structural??

 

A SAD AND TRAGIC END TO A GUY WHO LOVED AND LIVED FOR HIS HOBBY!

 

I am certain David would of practised reguarly emergency landings,,,

 

Regards GRAHAM

 

 

[jeff b]

I hear that the Arrow airframe is the same as the SST but less span. Not new in that department. Very sorry to hear this news.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The two things that come to mind to me is fuel exhaustion at the end of a long run (headwinds, new/tight engine etc), don't know if this was the case, as there was a fire, indicating that there was fuel on board. The second, and maybe more pertenent in this case is unfamiliarity with a new machine (different fuel-burn etc). This has got many experienced pilots in the past. This can be a real danger regardless of total flying time, or experience. Maybe there was a fuel problem leading to a required forced landing with a new wing type, which may not have been succesfully excecuted.

 

Structural failure ?....well that really speaks for itself doesn't it, and must go back to the manufacturer. There have been a series of two-up leading-edge 'tuck-under' failures in the past with machines from this manufacturer. Some with experienced instructors or pilots on board. Only speculation of course. So damn close also ..real shame.....................................................Maj...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Horrible. Looks like a near vertical arrival to me. No evidence of anything around the scene to say it was a forced landing. The grass all around is untouched, although the shots are very tight.

 

Gunna miss you Dave..

 

 

[Deskpilot]

GOOD POINT ALF AND YES THEY WERE BOTH THE NEW ARROW WINGS,BUT WITH DAVID HAVING OVER 270 HRS TT OR MORE I AM LEANING MORE TO HEALTH OR STRUCTURAL??

A SAD AND TRAGIC END TO A GUY WHO LOVED AND LIVED FOR HIS HOBBY!

 

I AM CERTAIN DAVID WOULD OF PRACTISED REGULARLY EMERGENCY LANDINGS,,,

 

RERGARDS GRAHAM

Just a point of etiquette Graham, all capitals is considered as shouting and therefore a no-no for normal conversations. Caps off please.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea stop shouting your waking the kids up... Hehe

 

 

[Teckair]

I don't see how there can be any lessons learned from this and other accidents unless we are informed of the results of the accident investigations. Until that happens people are only speculating and being told not to do so. The police do the investigation with assistance as required from RAA and for whatever reason the results are not revealed, as a result we do not learn from each accident what has gone wrong. There appears to have been a series of high impact fatal crashes and because of our backward system nobody knows why except the people who did the investigations and who they report to maybe a coroner? It occurs to me our team at Camberra should be working to change this as it is an important safety consideration. People could be getting killed again and again for the same reason unnecessarily just because the system has failed them.

 

Richard.

 

 

[Allan]

I was somewhat surprised as I reread the PA28 report that they said the wires were only 133' AWL. I guess that is measured when the lake is full

Nope. They're much closer when the lake is full, you ought to see them from boat level (esp. from the top deck of a houseboat!). I read the report as saying as much, 133 ft above water on that day, and the lake was 72.5 feet below full (288.9m-266.5m), which leaves around 60ft of clearance when the lake is full - which looks about right (I'm not game enough to try and measure it with a stick or anything). The wires were resagged (tightened) over 15 years ago (ie before the PA28 crash - I won't call it an accident) to get that sort of clearance as houseboats had been permitted to increase in height.

 

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Teckair, you're right that the system has failed us, and the crucial importance of finding out what caused each accident, so we ourselves don't face the same fate is treated with a couldn't care less attitude.

 

On the other hand, by discussing each accident, even if unrelated or unfounded theories are put forward, is education, and in many cases something we haven't come across in our training. That's the value of these threads, so if they stray from the case in point it doesn't matter, better that someone gets some hints which could save his/her life.

 

 

[Mick]

Regarding the lack of distributed information and / or lessons from RAAus, if it because they do not want this info published in the magazine for Joe Public to see, why not an insert in the magazine posted to members the same style as the one re insurance with our latest issue?

 

I still cannot believe that the executive do not share potentially life saving information.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There are certainly details they could share, and don't, for example the "Pilot Notes" are nothing short of pathetic.

 

However the real problem is that the Police control the investigation and will not release the information because that is not the way their culture works.

 

 

[Avspectator]

I'm sitting here watching air crash investigator; the one about the 777 at Heathrow. Even with millions in resources it took months to resolve.

 

I believe that RA-Aus do pass on any relevant safety information that is gleaned if it is apparent that the problem found at an accident scene could affect the rest of the fleet of a similar type.

 

Several years ago while operating a Drifter I received an Airwortiness Notice in the mail within 48 Hrs of an accident when it was discovered a particular type of common practice at the time caused the failure of a Drifter flying wire.

 

The fact is I believe that RA-Aus are proactive if defects are identified as a cause of an accident without waiting for Coronor or Police findings.

 

If you don't hear anything then the problem identified, doesn't affect your type of aeroplane; or in all probability was cased by Human/Pilot Error; which is usually the case in over 90% of all aircraft accidents.

 

As a Drifter pilot, I was very interested in following the speculation on this site of the Drifter accident a couple of years ago. I remember the clamour and calls for right to know on this site; however when the recent Coronor's finding was of human error causing the accident not many on here bothered to revisit the original postings and learn the lesson that if we don't hear anything through RA-Aus channels then in most cases it is a human error or the cause hasn't been determined. For instance had the pilot suffered a heart attack the autopsy results often take upto 8-10 weeks to become available to the investigators.

 

 

[Tomo]

Sitting here I just had a thought. The aircraft was obviously on fire at some stage, I wonder if it was an inflight fire?

 

With that in mind, whether it being the issue here, do we take enough precautions for fire prevention? I've see people with melted flight suits from trikes when sitting in the back seat.

 

 

[Powerin]

Tomo, in this case we have a cfi as a witness so perhaps he will shed some light on it, although I'm sure the poor guy is pretty devastated at the moment.

 

It's surely got to be medical or mechanical.

 

 

[Herm]

if we are still under the sights of CASA, why dont the RAAUS post the information in the Airservices Flight Safty Mag? for those that are not awar, this mag is free to ALL pilots. I have been getting this for about 5 years. Simply contact CASA and ask to be put on the mail list. I just don't understand why they are not listed in this mag. It has been printed with the sole function of saving life. I think I may contact RaAus about this.

 

Mardy

 

 

[turboplanner]

Mardy, I've made it clear a number of times. Serious Recreational Aircraft crashes are under the control of the various State and Territory Police. They are the ones with the power to release information for the safety and education of other pilots, and they don't release it.

 

RAA could kick and squeal all they liked, but it's not getting out of Police files at the present time.

 

 

[Herm]

Isn't CASA involved if flight incidents and they are federal. why then are they not allowing the information to get out? They should be able to get past state legislated Police. I am not suggesting that I know this, but I am having trouble getting my head around the suggested reasoning. Thier seems to be a culture of running press about Ultralights, and providing little information to cause ill informed press. Getting the facts out into the flying community and the public arena can only do good, and add to our saftey.

 

Mardy