Navex's

[dlps73]

OK - I've just started navex's and was wondering if people still use the protractor and scale rule or one of the many software options available when they're flight planning.

 

I understand the logic of learning to use the "mechanical" devices (changes en route etc. when the GPS is U/S) but is that basically all they are used for?

 

My query is based on the fact that I am a lot more fallible than the software I use and whilst I started off using the protractor I now find it a lot easier (and certainly more reassuring) to just create the waypoints, plug them into the route editor and then plug those computations into the flight plan.

 

Unfortunately I still feel like I'm "cheating" using this option......but I suppose that's balanced by the fact that I'm not allowed to use my GPS

 

:)

 

Thoughts?

 

Cheers......Doug

 

 

[PaulN]

Hi Doug,

 

Use the protractor and nav computer. During your training and for the first 100 - 200 hours of XC flying don't even think about flight planning software, just pretend they don't exist. It's not only an interesting and satisfying accomplishment to master these tools but a pretty darn important part of your pilot skills. Sure you'll make mistakes, as we all do, that's why it's important to check and recheck your calcs before commiting to flight.

 

I reckon if you're committed to learning to fly you should make every effort to master the required skills to a proficient pilot without needing to fall back on IT stuff. Yeah, I know, there will come a day as skills progress in line with technology that the old "mechanical" ways will pass by the way ... not many of us use an abacus anymore. But you and I are in the transition phase now, so apply your skills in line with your training syllabus until all that changes.

 

It'll be interesting to see what other views may come of this.

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest David C]

Doug .

 

I still use the old "whizz wheel " when I flight plan . I find it easy to work out drift and ground speed corrections using the old device . I have never used a software flight planning tool though , so I can't comment on their useability . After I have worked out all my calculations I usually load the route into a GPS and check my figures against the GPS's . Usually they are either the same or pretty close . Have fun .

 

Dave C

 

 

[Guest brentc]

You still need to use the mechanical devices. Why? What if you have a diversion in-flight due to weather? Your flight planning software won't have taken that into consideration and without the gear or knowing how to use it, you'll be in a load of trouble. The use of GPS in GA aircraft for primary navigation is achieved via an endorsement, but you must still know the mechanical methods to pass the PPL test.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I'm with the majority here - learn and remain current in using the mechanical tools. What's more carry them with you ;-)

 

I sometimes use a flightplanner but most often I use a piece of paper and a prayerwheel and a chart.

 

Among other things I like to get the course down on a WAC or VNC and think about the issues, obstacles, terrain and airspace. then I may chnge it or put in a new waypoint etc until I'm happy. All of that before I then commit to a route and do the actual numbers.

 

regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Admin]

Oops - I think I have my old wiz wheel, ruler and protractor around here somewhere - the problem is I have forgotten how to use them - I think it is time for a refresher course :;)3:.

 

This is the only problem with GPS units :;)4:

 

 

[facthunter]

Nav methods.

 

Use the simplest stuff that will work in flight. You cannot guarantee your GPS, so use it as a back-up,only. The system wants you to use the prayer wheel & rule & be proficient at it at the learning stage & that's not likely to change in OUR environment. It's only the triangle of velocities that you need to master, & even that can be a little abstract so check your answer mentally. (That it makes sense) If you have to DIVERT for some reason,& you are on your own, you will have to FLY the plane as well as work this all out, so estimate the track required from yor present position, to the alternate, off the WAC. chart (you can get pretty good at this with a bit of practice), head towards it, find the distance by putting your finger width as a gauge, 1 Finger = 10 nm, Then hand draw your track line, start map reading, then refine your required heading for variation and drift, You should have had a good idea of the W/V already.

 

You are better to be roughly right ,than PRECISELY WRONG. (helps me )... Hope it helps you. N...

 

 

[Ultralights]

the only electronic i use in my Navs are this

 

 

and this

 

 

only in VOR mode..

 

as for a GPS, i will take one, but i only use it in a diversion, or getting an accurate ground speed to help in fuel calcs.

 

sure looking out the window is fun, but i still prefer the good old compass map and timer.

 

 

[dlps73]

Thanks for the response guys - I was actually referring to creating the flight plan at home prior to actually flying but I see where you're coming from!

 

However - whilst I carry a whiz wheel I still prefer to do in flight calculations using a CX-2 with my PDA (with an E6B program) as a back up (sorry but it takes me forever to work out wind drift calculations on the whiz wheel).

 

I suppose my point is that the technology is there and available - why not use it?

 

I recognise there's a Murphy's Law element to all of this - ergo the PDA backup but personally my compentancy and confidence lies with keyboards and LCD screens.

 

BTW Out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a GPS fail on them?

 

Cheers........Doug

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

BTW Out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a GPS fail on them?

Cheers........Doug

Yes and repeatedly. The first time was in the dark, in the middle of Bass Strait, in a boat, in a SE gale. In my limited experience I haven't had the unit cease to participate entirely. Rather just repeatedly crash and hang. It effectively amounts to the same thing.

 

Other people I have talked to have had similar issues. Also faulty memory or map cards seem to be particularly prone to causing this issue with GPSs.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Matt]

G'day Doug - agree with the guys comments about understanding the fundamentals before engaging technology to help...just like at school learning maths when calculators were available...not sure what kids these days do - maybe calculators are the 'old' way now with PCs on every desk.

 

Once you're proficient and comfortable with the fundamentals, then make use of anything that's available to help you in the cockpit. I use Command Flight Planner for all my flight planning and a Garmin 196 and PDA/GPS with OziExplorer in flight - why 2 GPS's, well as the guys mentioned, one might fail. The trick with using technology to assist is to be proficient with its use before you take it into the cockpit - you need to know how to use it quickly and effectively otherwise it'll be a distraction. Being proficient with your GPS/PDA or whatever you use will make in-flight planning, diversions etc. as easy to deal with as using a map, compass and wizz wheel...in fact a lot easier at times, let's you focus on flying the aircraft...that's my experience at least. All that being said...we still have the printed flight plan, map and wizz wheel in the aircraft and track our progress on the 'old' map...wizz wheel for me is a backup if the GPS and PDA fail me.

 

I think technology should be embraced to make life easier for us...whatever it is we're trying to do...probably why I work for a technology company!

 

 

[dlps73]

Thanks Matt and Mike - in summation I believe the common theme is to thoroughly understand the basics ie map reading, drawing tracks, etc. and this then will allow me a "fall back" position if the electronic gizzmos fail.

 

This is all good as I can still use my "toys" further up the learning curve!

 

And Matt - you're describing pretty much how I envisage my flying will proceed further up the track - no outright dependency on any one device and multiple redundancy.

 

Mike - all my GPS's are Garmin and none have extra cards for maps. Not sure if that's relevent but I've never had a failure and that includes the Map60CS which is mounted on my push bike for geocaching and gets a fair hammering.

 

I shall bow down to your expertise though as I only know a few aviators and never thought of asking them.....:big_grin:

 

Thanks again guys - this is certainly a great source of information and learning.....

 

Cheers.......Doug

 

 

[Student Pilot]

BTW Out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a GPS fail on them?

Never actualy fail, only stop working for a few minutes. That was a while ago and I think it was something to do with solar disturbance. I've used them a bit (around 9,000 hours) and have used all sorts from a Garmin 111 to a working differential GPS. The main problem with GPS's is finger trouble, people putting the wrong position in or setting the unit up wrong.

 

Just for cross country navigation they make the trip so much more enjoyable. I still do a plan (Flight planner program) and carry the relivant maps and keep an eye on the maps during the flight.

 

I have covered most of this country with a lot of remote area work with just a compass and clock so I do have a bit of an idea how to do it old way but for pure flying enjoyment I use a GPS and enjoy looking out the window. Closer to the big cities where there is a bit of different airspace congestion I tend to refer to maps a bit more.

 

I'll add a bit on wind drift, I don't allow for wind drift in planning. The wind is never a consistant componant, especially down in the lower levels where I tend to fly at never much above 7,000. I just start off and then allow for drift as it occurs, on a longer trip it can vary a lot.

 

Regards SP

 

 

[facthunter]

Navex.

 

The line that you put on a map,(WAC. VNC , VTC.) Gives you the maximum ability to mapread, avoid geographical features, PRD's and aerodromes, Controlled airspace etc. You have to determine the frequency's from ERSA.If you don't do it this way, is your database up to it? You need a little more than tracks & distances. If you are flying IFR (on IFR routes) what you propose would suffice for a flight plan, (with notams supplied for your specific operation), But we are a long way from that situation here.

 

Yes I have had my GPS fail. I love to have it with me, it's a backup only and I do use my computer to do the preliminary calculations & get an idea where I might have to refuel, And those tracks go into the GPS, but when I PUT THE LINE ON THE MAP. I find that many of those tracks have to be altered for reasons above. Modified might be a better concept. Something to think about. Nev...

 

 

[Ben Longden]

"Take the maps, protractor/ruler and prayer wheel with you."

 

Thats what my instructor, Tristo says.. and it works.

 

The navexes he has put me through with sudden 'diversions' and a quick inflight check with map, protractor and brain (well.. pencil and bit of paper as well) have been enlightening. There is nothing like working out the course and drift calculations in flight for a divert.

 

When doing the ground work beforehand, I love doing the map work... and then the drifts.. and Ed, a fellow student will jump onto the computer and crunch the numbers there and check my math.. and I always get Tristo to double check things as well.

 

Ben

 

 

[Student Pilot]

After landing he found out he had swiched the GPS from "aviation" to "automotive" mode..

The moral to the story is know your systems starting with the Aircraft first.

 

 

[Yenn]

If they fail you will be in the poo if you can't navigate the old way, so keep up to scratch. As far as using a hand held radio for VOR's you uaually have to use it's radio ability for a lot of the time you are in range of a VOR transmitter, so it will still be up to using the compass as you get near a CTAF®.

 

The tool I would like in my plane is a Directional Gyro. I miss that above all else from my GA days as it is so easy to follow a compass course with the DG and on a rough day the compass wanders all over the place.

 

 

[PaulN]

I second Ian's comments re DG and fluid compass. Our little birdies do bounce about at times.

 

Re GPS failure, mine has dropped out 3 times since Dec 2004. As Murphy would have it, each time was smack over the top of tiger stuff but only for about 30 seconds. Strangely, it failed on two well separated occasions in the same location midway between Tumut and Cooma.

 

Each time this has happened, intuitively my eye went straight to the compass to confirm my bearing then back to the flt plan to check the drift and all was well. It's so easy to become dependent of these gadgets.

 

Paul

 

 

[jcamp]

100 mile out of Birdsville the GPS shut down (remote aerial being dodgy we were using the normal one with the GPS bluetacked on the dash and it overheated)

 

No real problem, known position, wind etc nailed down, topo generally like WAC (assume rain has made details being mainly lakes less reliable) 4 hrs daylight 6 hrs fuel so:

 

1 - Revert to normal compass card (bit different with GPS next to compass)

 

2 - Turn right 10 degrees to intercept the Diamentina upstream of BDV (always consider line features)

 

3 - Pull out hand held GPS

 

4 - Update plans C D & E

 

ALWAYS have options

 

 

[hihosland]

DG alternative

 

Has anyone experience with the so called "electronic compasses". I presume that one of those would not jump around as does the floating magnetic version and consequently would provide many of the benefits of a DG at a fraction of the incvestment.

 

Davidh

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

HI David,

 

I've used a fluxgate compass at sea and it's pretty good. I've also use a Dynon EFIS which has a fluxgate sensor and it's also pretty good to steer by - it doesn't jump around at all.

 

I assume that there are cheaper standalone fluxgate compasses for a/c.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[hihosland]

There are several units around designed for in car use and priced around $200 I have been considering adding one for the day that the GPS goes walkabout and the magnetic compass is dancing to its own tune.

 

Your comments suggest that this might be a good plan, certainly cheaper than an true gyro DG

 

Davidh

 

 

[poteroo]

Agree with Pelorus re the Dynon....a great piece of equipment !

 

Mine is a D-10A model, with the remote compass installed, OAT/TAS function installed, and the HSI page option installed by me via a web download from their site.

 

The TAS function is excellent.

 

Using the heading bug on a Dynon makes for very easy heading keeping too.....akin to an autopilot bug on a DG.

 

cheers,

 

 

[hihosland]

Question re fluxgate compasses

 

do they show the lag/lead or acceleration quirks as do magnetic instruments or do they have their own particular challenging features?

 

Davidh

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi David,

 

It's worth reading this little excerpt to give you an idea of the limitations.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluxgate_compass

 

As you will see they are susceptible to acceleration in axes other than yaw.

 

The Dynon installation makes much of ensuring that the compass module is setup to within a very small tolerance of the same pitch and roll as the EFIS. This makes me think that the EFIS uses inputs from its other accelerometers to steady the compass module.

 

This probably means that those fluxgates not built for purpose cannot be relied on.

 

Others may know more.

 

Regards

 

Mike