John G Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 David the majority of the board voted yesterday to accept the presidents withdrawal of resignation. In fact no-one voted against it. There is a legal opinion from slater and Gordon, I'm not sure if that is an archive opinion or freshRegards, Jim. Jim, I wonder whether you have had the wool pulled over your eyes. Prior to your post I was speaking with a Board member that advised me that he was not asked to vote nor did he cast a vote either way because he was never included in the vote or the issues debated in any form whatsoever! How can a Board function like that? So did you receive a phone call canvassing your opinion and then it was taken as a vote? Where is due process and deliberation of all the facts and precedents that is expected of an office bearer? Jim, tread carefully. They will play you for a patsy. Just make sure you are familiar with your duties and responsibilities under ASIC. Replying that Middo told you it would be OK will not be a defence! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Why am I getting a feeling that Slater and Gordon are going to become moderatly richer after the QC's have finished. What were the exact terms of his resignation? hmm Elected office and the act. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Did that legal opinion cost me money as a member ? Hmmm. I'm OK with the fact that the president changed his mind, withdrew his resignation and the board allowed him back. I'm not OK with the president incurring a legal cost at member's expense for the privilege of being able to change his mind. That should come out of his own pocket (and perhaps it did). In reality the RAAus probably retains the services of a legal firm for an annual fee and advice can be obtained at no further change. Let me just check the financial statements to see if that's the case. Oh...wait.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Thinking about the legal issues as effecting the board as present.. It has been mentioned several times that board meetings occur on a regular basis using a forum / chat program. As such where are the minutes of these meetings and is the board aware that these discussions are now a matter for public record. RAA is subject to FOI has it has regulatory powers invested in it from the Commonwealth. Correct and proper records are required to be kept, Any attempt to destroy these documents would be viewed in a dis-satisfied way by any court. How can a member attend one of these board meetings?? Is there any notification given to members of these board meeting taking place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John G Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 David the majority of the board voted yesterday to accept the presidents withdrawal of resignation. In fact no-one voted against it. There is a legal opinion from slater and Gordon, I'm not sure if that is an archive opinion or freshRegards, Jim. Jim, Please consider the following letter I received back in 2008: Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. ABN 40 070 931 645 PO Box 1265 3/1 Pirie Street, FYSHWICK ACT 2609 1st October 2008 Mr. John Gardon P.O. Box 154 WARDELL, N.S.W., 2477 Dear Mr. Gardon, Re: decision of the board relating to withdrawal of a resignation with regard to your request for withdrawal of your resignation from the RA-Aus board, the RA-Aus board has made a decision that a withdrawal of a letter of resignation from a board member will not be accepted. Yours sincerely, Lynn Jarvis Secretary Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. When I contacted the secretary at the time he told me that a resolution had been passed that once a Board member or executive member tendered his resignation or even an intent to resign then that resignation could not be withdrawn. The resolution had been passed on legal advice received at the time. Now, unless there is a rescission of that resolution the board ( at least those that were asked to vote) have all acted illegally and against legal advice as well as good governance practice. I'm somewhat mystified at the legal advice obtained: The president resigns at 05:30??? Monday 26th November and Legal advice obtained by 1300 on Tuesday to enable a motion with a proposer and seconder; and sufficient time to discuss and debate and a vote carried by late Tuesday of all Board members geographically dispersed around Australia. Come ON. Did they really expect that you came down in the last shower? I'm sure when an investigation is carried out in the future whether it be by ASIC or some other body there will be a lot of unanswered questions; just as the members currently have. By the way the members have a legitimate claim to see the legal advice that was obtained and paid for by the members, and in due course will demand it. I hope it is there with a readily available audit trail. How come some Board members were not invited to participate in the discussion or vote?? Another illegality! Jim, not attacking you. Just asking you to consder the facts. Been there done that and don't want to see someone else get caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Hmmm. I'm OK with the fact that the president changed his mind, withdrew his resignation and the board allowed him back. Im not Ok with that and cant see how it can be accepted. Procedural fairness and natural justice require that everyone be treated in the same manner. I do not understand how what has happened complies with that in any way? Next time somone is sanctioned in RAAus for breaking some significant rule, perhaps they should write and say "I withdraw my wrong act and ask that the santcions therefore be removed. I didnt mean it" Now people will say thats insane, why is this any differrent? If I say "I resign" then its a statement of fact, you can no more withdraw from that statement of fact than you can from a wrongful act already commited because both are already historical events. If I write "I offer my resignation" then that is an offer and requires acceptance before it becomes a fact. On acceptance you can no more undo that fact that you can with the plain old "I resign" approach. In any event the "I offer my resignation" scenario perhaps clouds the issue because as I understand it SR's resignation was of the "I resign" form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I wonder what ASIC would do if a group of members had a chat to their local member of the non-labor varity. 'Can the minister for transport (or whatever department they call it now) please advise the house on what efforts are being made to insure that some 3000 small aircraft and 8000 pilots are being regulated and managed correctly' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John G Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 I wonder what ASIC would do if a group of members had a chat to their local member of the non-labor varity.'Can the minister for transport (or whatever department they call it now) please advise the house on what efforts are being made to insure that some 3000 small aircraft and 8000 pilots are being regulated and managed correctly' Make that 13,000+ members! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Do we have any members that are 'members' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I wonder what ASIC would do if a group of members had a chat to their local member of the non-labor varity. 'Can the minister for transport (or whatever department they call it now) please advise the house on what efforts are being made to insure that some 3000 small aircraft and 8000 pilots are being regulated and managed correctly' The minister would ask CASA, who would reply that they were already taking strong and decisive action in the matter, to the degree that no registrations or renewals would be made without thorough checking. Then CASA would start really watching their backs, and ensuring that no aircraft was registered without absolutely everything correct, including the aircraft's political and religious beliefs, a lie detector check on the maintenance books (with any book failing the check being interviewed by the Committee for Un-American logbooks), a stat dec from the owner stating that they had always been a boy scout, and a requirement that the original manufacturer guarantee that no changes had been made to the aircraft since the manufacturer last saw it....and then they would start on the pilots... Basically, it would force CASA into witch-hunt mode on RA-Aus, to ensure they did absolutely nothing wrong, even if it meant doing nothing (eg not registering aircraft). dodo 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Im not Ok with that and cant see how it can be accepted. Procedural fairness and natural justice require that everyone be treated in the same manner. I do not understand how what has happened complies with that in any way? Fair enough. I guess a precedent had been set. And yes, it is neither fair nor naturally just. I just think that with everything else it is a side issue not worth losing sleep over. If members want to remove the president (or not) then it can be dealt with at the upcoming meeting. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Fair enough. I guess a precedent had been set. And yes, it is neither fair nor naturally just. I just think that with everything else it is a side issue not worth losing sleep over. If members want to remove the president (or not) then it can be dealt with at the upcoming meeting. Or....having removed himself we need not jump any hurdle at all...... (at least in context of SR...assuming that might occur) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 As a new member to the board I am trying to keep the masses on this forum informed. Please be mindful what I am posting is correct to the best of my knowledge. As to a board member not being able to vote I believe is incorrect as we all have access to the board members forum to which is our primary form of communications. Regards, Jim tatlock. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Jim, We really do appreciate the effort you are going to. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Jim, thanks for informing us. Despite the often combative tenor of the posts, I think most posters greatly appreciate the contributions by current ( and past) board members. It contributes balance and a practical focus to what can otherwise be unfocused and drifting threads. You won't get many explicit thanks - probably just once in a while, but I think it is greatly appreciated, even when people disagree with you. At least we get an idea of what is going on, dodo 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 As a new member to the board I am trying to keep the masses on this forum informed. Please be mindful what I am posting is correct to the best of my knowledge. As to a board member not being able to vote I believe is incorrect as we all have access to the board members forum to which is our primary form of communications.Regards, Jim tatlock. Man talk about deep end therapy!!!! Sorry Jim! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 For gain there has to be pain. I think it is time for a few long term board members to shove off. You guys have done a wonderfull job, but I think that fresh ideas are needed. No point crying over the good old he said she said before my time, you guys have been there for a long time.Life doesnt work that way.RAA has out grown the boys clubs mentality.Time for some professionals to take over.We should be able to afford it with 13000 plus members forking out way over a hundred bucks a pop. I know that we have monkeys, trying to sue the arse off us because they cant accept that their partners died doing something that they where willing to do. ( Im not a lawyer, and I bet my left nut they the suer's didnt bring home the bacon either). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I have not posted for some time, however I have been watching a little from the sidelines. I have seen that a general meeting is to be called by some members to discuss numerous board matters. Seeing the posts above I now fully realise what has been going on is worse than I suspected and I will now be looking to find a form to sign to indicate I want a meeting now as well. A resignation is a resignation. It appears that the Ex president Mr Runmancin has resigned as President - (he could be asked to come back ,be reinstated by the other board members into his old position, I see that as a possibility) BUT Mr Runmancin has also resigned as our North Qld Board representative. Hence he is now no longer our board member representative from up here in North Queensland and we will now have to find a replacement. Another election and we only just put him in there. I agree with what is in the threads above that anything our Ex president has said or done since receipt of his resignation email of Monday ( per JohnG statement) is null and void. If it is true that any of the other existing board members support his reinstatement, then they do not understand due process and our Constitution and should not be board representative as well. The other board members cannot reinstate the now ex president, now ex board member, only us in North Qld can do that and he has now lost my vote. I implore others to contact their local board representatives and point out to them that what they are proposing is illegal and not to reinstate the Ex board member Mr Runmancin without an election, as they have no power or authority under the Constitution to carry out this action. If they do I would hate to see the consequences and where it could lead. We need board members that understand the constitution and will work with the framework of our Constitution, not write their own rules and own constitution. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 dazza, I disagree with your opinion on the board members that post here (dunno about those that may just lurk). I think the board members that have posted here (past and current) are probably the ones we would want to have as board members. It shows they are prepared to inform, and be criticised. Spriteah has two weeks "form" so can't be condemned for the past. Cazza, Don Ramsay and John G quit due to the environment on the board. John Mck has had the guts, integrity, and humility to state his position and defend it. The board members who are a problem are those who don't inform their members, don't defend their opinions and actions, etc. This is also only one forum of many, so just because someone hasn't posted here doesn't mean they are not achieving - but those that have seem to be the sort of people who do have something to contribute. dodo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 at this stage...members need to see the "resignation letter"...unless i've missed something...no member has seen the e-mail? Or the financals, the truth, any of the letters sent from CASA to RAA etc etc etc etc. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 at this stage...members need to see the "resignation letter"...unless i've missed something...no member has seen the e-mail? Do we ever? I haven't seen Adam Quinn's resignation note, nor his dismissal reasons, if it is true he was fired. I haven't seen any of the CASA audit findings. I haven't seen the AGM minutes. I haven't seen the financial statements. So if we wait for information from the board, we would be better off going flying (if you have a registered plane). dodo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 dazza,I disagree with your opinion on the board members that post here (dunno about those that may just lurk). I think the board members that have posted here (past and current) are probably the ones we would want to have as board members. It shows they are prepared to inform, and be criticised. Spriteah has two weeks "form" so can't be condemned for the past. Cazza, Don Ramsay and John G quit due to the environment on the board. John Mck has had the guts, integrity, and humility to state his position and defend it. The board members who are a problem are those who don't inform their members, don't defend their opinions and actions, etc. This is also only one forum of many, so just because someone hasn't posted here doesn't mean they are not achieving - but those that have seem to be the sort of people who do have something to contribute. dodo I never said members who post here. Especially Johnny Mck . He is my local rep. When I said local "long term board members" I am talking about the retreads who are a president one minute & treasurer the next. I am talking about dudes who filled the AUF magazine 20 years ago . Sorry I should have been more specific. Cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Errr.....maybe I should have read your post a little more carefully. It is quite clear to me - now! apologies, dodo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 at this stage...members need to see the "resignation letter"...unless i've missed something...no member has seen the e-mail? Its probably long gone Phil, deleted. Doesnt change anything, Johnny Mack has already said that it was kosher.That is good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Errr.....maybe I should have read your post a little more carefully. It is quite clear to me - now!apologies, dodo Its all good mate. There is a lot of tension atm. People are scared, with what is going to happen in the future. We all hope that all this stuff is sorted & it is a distant memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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