FlyingVizsla Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 RAA have published the CASA Deed of Agreement for 2012/13 on the Members Only portal. It is a scanned copy. Read it for yourselves. There will be an exam. Sue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 All deadlines passed without delivery. No milestones met. SMS education/assisted introduction - zero. The report card is not good! It will be interesting to see what milestones and deadlines will be set in the next Deed. RAAus is not in a good negotiating position. At least we (the members) will now be aware of what RAAus is expected to achieve - and when. DWF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Just read in entirety , seems to me that RAAus does have a legal standing and CASA requirement to monitor and gather facts on accident statistics, and share them with members in a timely manner. This means that yes, per our deed of agreement with CASA the appropriate RAA persons ( operations person ?/ trained RAA accident investigator) , would have the right to demand from police on site for the sharing of investigational duties, and sharing of all facts pertaining to the incident/accident ????...A CASA / Federal gov department mandate would beat a State police requirement wouldn't it. This is one area I would intent to strongly push for, if elected as a board member. We need timely and complete information on what the causes are, on our accidents and fatalities. This is a prime matter of safety !!..As CASA documents go, and I've read my share over the years, this one is fairly open to interpretation, in many areas...............Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Just read in entirety , seems to me that RAAus does have a legal standing and CASA requirement to monitor and gather facts on accident statistics, and share them with members in a timely manner. This means that yes, per our deed of agreement with CASA the appropriate RAA persons ( operations person ?/ trained RAA accident investigator) , would have the right to demand from police on site for the sharing of investigational duties, and sharing of all facts pertaining to the incident/accident ????...A CASA / Federal gov department mandate would beat a State police requirement wouldn't it.This is one area I would intent to strongly push for, if elected as a board member. We need timely and complete information on what the causes are, on our accidents and fatalities. This is a prime matter of safety !!..As CASA documents go, and I've read my share over the years, this one is fairly open to interpretation, in many areas...............Maj... Major...it's an immutable fact that the parties to an agreement are only those that sign it. In otherwords you and I cant make a contract that Fred will do X,Y and Z without Fred being a party to the agreement.......For us to do as you suggest requires other parties involvement and legislative cover... Those things dont exist and as such CASA can require it till the cows come home and we still cant deliver it until those legal impediments are removed. Police forces (other than that in the ACT are state based organisations driven by State Governments not by Federal organisations (including CASA) Now that all said, and true, what has or is being done to remove or change the circumstances so we can meet our obligations. Furthermore given that CASA clearly want us to do that, how are they helping us achieve that or have they even been asked? Andy. P.S I think what you want is correct and appropriate, but definately not the be all and end all. I suspect that when we do get to the position of doing this work we will again, in the main, start to relearn all the old lessons that technically have already been learnerd....but for some reason not absorbed, or not ceter of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Andy, The CASA deed does clearing recognise us as a member based organisation, and clearly requires the collection and reporting of accident /fatality details. It clearly needs to be shared with those most effected ...the membership...period. And it gives us the tools with which to do it. It needs to be done and it is a very safety related matter. There is the word 'safety' in CASAs name is there not...Don't complicate what is really a simple matter that has been recognised for many years (even by CASA ) as something that helps avoid future accidents........Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Major, we covered this in one of the previous threads. As Andy alluded to the Police are not going to release their briefs to third parties full stop, so that avenue is closed. For RAA to go to the extent of training dedicated investigators, obtaining forensic equipment etc. would be expensive, problematic, and as we have seen would meet a huge objection from the members not interested in safety. And it would required an Act or amendment to an Act of Parliament to give RAA the same powers as the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, which given the current level of RAA non-compliance of RAA culd be seen by some Parliamentarians as irresponsible. However, since CASA have specified something which RAA currently can't deliver, and ATSB recently said it was going to investigate all GA fatals, it is an ideal time to campaign for ATSB to investigate ALL aircraft fatals, including RAA, and the same basis as New Zealand. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Andy, The CASA deed does clearing recognise us as a member based organisation, and clearly requires the collection and reporting of accident /fatality details. It clearly needs to be shared with those most effected ...the membership...period. And it gives us the tools with which to do it. It needs to be done and it is a very safety related matter. There is the word 'safety' in CASAs name is there not...Don't complicate what is really a simple matter that has been recognised for many years (even by CASA ) as something that helps avoid future accidents........Maj.... At this stage is doesn't give us the powers needed, which were given to ATSB (and not CASA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 You've got the horse before the cart. Unless a State police force has a dedicated accident investigation team which would attend a serious/fatal Rec Flying incident, the local bloke would happily accept the assistance of an independent investigator, suitably certified by RAAus, to assist in preparing the necessary reports. If the incident involved a fatality, then the local Coroner would be wise to accept this assistance. For Coroners to automatically OK this independent assistance, all it needs is a Deed of Agreement between RAAus and each Chief State Coroner. Arranging the agreement could be initiated by RAAus. Also a fatality is the domain of a Coroner. It is the task of police, as agents of the Coroner, to investigate and prepare reports into the death. Therefore in the investigation into a death what the Coroner says, goes. Any reports submitted to the Coroner are not usually available to the public until they are produced as information during the Inquest. However, I'm sure that in the interests of community safety, a clause could be included in any Deed of Agreement that matters having a significant effect on public safety could be published prior to the completion of the Inquest (probably on a 'no name, no pack drill' basis). Old Man Emu 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Turbo, the last thing we are is a simple mere 'third party'.....by that deed we can be authorised by Federal mandate to have access to those facts in a timely manner. It is part of our deed of agreement signed with the Federal government, and Federal beats State, last time I checked, especially in matters of aviation regulation........Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Further, I have no doubt that if we put our case to CASA, they would accommodate , and make the necessary amendments to the deed, in the interest of public safety !!.....Isn't this what they want us to do anyway ?........don't tell me it's not in the realm of possibility, because as I read the deed..it is !.the ball has just never been picked up and run with adequetly by RAAus...................Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 You've got the horse before the cart. Unless a State police force has a dedicated accident investigation team which would attend a serious/fatal Rec Flying incident, the local bloke would happily accept the assistance of an independent investigator, suitably certified by RAAus, to assist in preparing the necessary reports. If the incident involved a fatality, then the local Coroner would be wise to accept this assistance. For Coroners to automatically OK this independent assistance, all it needs is a Deed of Agreement between RAAus and each Chief State Coroner. Arranging the agreement could be initiated by RAAus.Also a fatality is the domain of a Coroner. It is the task of police, as agents of the Coroner, to investigate and prepare reports into the death. Therefore in the investigation into a death what the Coroner says, goes. Any reports submitted to the Coroner are not usually available to the public until they are produced as information during the Inquest. However, I'm sure that in the interests of community safety, a clause could be included in any Deed of Agreement that matters having a significant effect on public safety could be published prior to the completion of the Inquest (probably on a 'no name, no pack drill' basis). Old Man Emu The Coroner has specific tasks to perform, one of which is to find out the cause of death (which might be that an aircraft crashed and he suffered serious burns and the burns killed him. Our requirements are different, we need to know what caused the aircraft to crash, so we can learn lessons for the future, and that requires a different investigation. The Coroner's work may be valuable input, and often their investigation and conclusions provide value input for us, but in other cases what they come up with, may not be even close to the issues we need to know about. So while RAA specialists are currently called in from time to time to assist a Coroner under the present arrangements, we could not meet the requirement of the CASA deed of Arrangement under the legals of that arrangement, and nor would we want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 The Coroner is also charged with investigating the circumstances of the death. Have you ever prepared a Report to a Coroner in relation to an aviation fatality? OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Turbo, Of course we would want to...and need to, for the safety of our members. The coroners main role in life is to study the causes of the contributing causes of the accident, and make recommendations so that the same causes can be avoided in the future.......Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 The Coroner is also charged with investigating the circumstances of the death.Have you ever prepared a Report to a Coroner in relation to an aviation fatality? OME Never prepared a report ome, but have been the main, and only knowledgable witness in a coroners fatal air crash enquiry.............Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Turbo, the last thing we are is a simple 'mere third party'.....by that deed we can be authorised by Federal mandate to have access to those facts in a timely manner. It is part of our deed of agreement signed with the Federal government, and Federal beats State, last time I checked, especially in matters of aviation regulation........Maj.... A deed is just an agreement between two parties, in this case if it's a Deed for money - a very simple agreement which spells out that CASA will give X amount of money in return for RAA doing Y, and it's loose enough that it's changed every year because of the different amount of money given every year. The current deed is technically not feasible, so there is an opportunity for CASA and RAA to find a solution. As I mentioned above, Coroner investigations are not technical enough for us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Major your understanding of the heirarchy of responsibility is wrong. To simplify that Federal trumps State is simply wrong. If what you say were true then reforms such as disability schemes and Gonski school reforms would not require the negotiation and the state based, in some case, current refusal to accept, rather it would simply require the fed gov of the day to say, screw it, we are out of time, you the states are having this........ That will not happen and cannot happen under the Australian Constitution. If you think the states are digging their heals in over education and health of a smaller subsection of society (which says nothing of their IMHO obvious disadvantage) then watch what happens when the Feds try and drive policing in a specific direction. Its right and proper IMHO that the Australian constitution forces tension into the management of the relationships of State and Federal Governments.....what wasn't envisaged at the time was the power of the federal government today and the ability it now has to coerce States to their point of view by having become the majority source of state revenue..... In the begining the Federal governemnt was very much smaller than the states.......quite the reverse of what it is today... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 ........... CASA requirement to monitor and gather facts on accident statistics, and share them with members in a timely manner. is not the same as.... and clearly requires the collection and reporting of accident /fatality details. "statistics" is not "details". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 A deed is just an agreement between two parties, in this case if it's a Deed for money - a very simple agreement which spells out that CASA will give X amount of money in return for RAA doing Y, and it's loose enough that it's changed every year because of the different amount of money given every year. As I mentioned above, Coroner investigations are not technical enough for us. Would have to disagree with your last line there Turbs, Some coroners reports, and in particular one up this way involving both Lee Ungermann and Mick Poole at the time, was extremely technical to the point of being pedantic !. If the coroner takes the time and does his job thoroughly , he has the ability by law, to access anything he needs................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Major your understanding of the heirarchy of responsibility is wrong. To simplify that Federal trumps State is simply wrong.If what you say were true then reforms such as disability schemes and Gonski school reforms would not require the negotiation and the state based, in some case, current refusal to accept, rather it would simply require the fed gov of the day to say, screw it, we are out of time, you the states are having this........ That will not happen and cannot happen under the Australian Constitution. If you think the states are digging their heals in over education and health of a smaller subsection of society (which says nothing of their IMHO obvious disadvantage) then watch what happens when the Feds try and drive policing in a specific direction. Its right and proper IMHO that the Australian constitution forces tension into the management of the relationships of State and Federal Governments.....what wasn't envisaged at the time was the power of the federal government today and the ability it now has to coerce States to their point of view by having become the majority source of state revenue..... In the begining the Federal governemnt was very much smaller than the states.......quite the reverse of what it is today... Andy Andy, this is why things readily disappear between the cracks, because people like you go out of your way to over complicate things, and make a mountain out of a molehill, as you have done very effectively above. Keep it simple stupid (kiss)......... You must know that no state has any durasdiction over federal aviation activities, it is a Federally regulated entity. They may have a bit to do with airports and noise abatement / flight paths etc, but it is the Feds that regulate airspace and air activities in this country , last time I checked..............Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Andy, this is why things readily disappear between the cracks, because people like you go out of your way to over complicate things, and make a mountain out of a molehill, as you have done very effectively above. Keep it simple stupid (kiss).........You must know that no state has any durasdiction over federal aviation activities, it is a Federally regulated entity. They may have a bit to do with airports and noise abatement / flight paths etc, but it is the Feds that regulate airspace and air activities in this country,..................Maj... Major Yeah, what was I thinking!! clearly your right......<closes eyes and clicks heals together 3 times..there's no place like........> Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Ah lowering yourself to unintelligent name calling won't get us far either Andy..I hope I don't get to sit next to you on the board!...Excuse me if I'm disappointed ........Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I'm sorry if you were offended....I feel I'm talking but you aren't listening.....Your responses aren't even in response to the points I make. for example CASA may well have SAFETY in its name but it DOESNT EVEN DO any investigation of ANY Crashes that's the role of ATSB What Turbo and I have provided is simply the legislative basis for how things are today (facts!) .....Should they continue that way? IMHO No absolutely not......Is it simple to change.....you say it is (NOT a fact, but a supposition), yet the reality is that so far nothing has changed in many years, apparently despite an appropriate way to solve the legislative issues being put forward by ATSB to RAAus some years ago. Is that because its hard, or because RAAus is slack! I'm having an each way bet on that. (except for the opportunity put in our lap those years past where it was in my opinion 100% slackness) As I've already stated I would like things to change and as I see it there are only 2 possible ways forward:- 1) We get under the same legislative umbrella that ATSB (Not CASA) exists under that covers GA/RPT/All other major forms of mass transportation. 2) We go it alone and try and set up something with every individual state based police force/coroner Its my belief that 2) wont ever work (practically it might but we are then legally exposed and that's just as untenable) , and 1) is most likely and the best legal position to be in (practically and legally) Is it simple.........well only time will tell....Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I think we need accident reports and see no reason why the police report for the coroner can not be available to us. This has been covered in various different threads on here in the past and there is always those who come up with reasons why it can't be done. There has been dumb ass comments comparing rock fishing accidents with flying accidents and that sort of unhelpful negative stuff. I think you will find the police investigations go further than... the pilot died as a result of the fire after the crash, but how would we know when the results are kept secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I think we need accident reports and see no reason why the police report for the coroner can not be available to us. This has been covered in various different threads on here in the past and there is always those who come up with reasons why it can't be done. There has been dumb ass comments comparing rock fishing accidents with flying accidents and that sort of unhelpful negative stuff. I think you will find the police investigations go further than... the pilot died as a result of the fire after the crash, but how would we know when the results are kept secret? Teckair, what has been said, over and over on threads here is that police will not release their briefs to the general public, or organizations, and have no obligation to, and in some cases very good legal reason not to. It would be nice if we could get them, and when one is rarely made public, as in a bus crash in Queensland many years ago, the details were excellent. But it's a closed story to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Major, we are behind you in wanting good quality investigations and reports, but getting there is legally complicated - too complicated for the 5 second exchanges so far in this thread, where people clearly do not understand the limitations of the jurisdictions and what would be required to set something up. If you want to pursue this, I'd suggest that you start by reading the ACT applicable to the ATSB to see what powers and protections would be required, and then taking it up in formal RAA meetings where, for example a contributor could present an hour's powerpoint presentation based on sourced facts, rather than a two second reference to something that might sound like a good idea, but which would be shot down by existing legislation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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