Savannahflyer Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Is there anyone out there building a kit aircraft with the 912IS in it? I'm considering putting one in my savannah but don't know much about the engine management system. Do they need different probes & such & does it require a glass EMS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Is there anyone out there building a kit aircraft with the 912IS in it? I'm considering putting one in my savannah but don't know much about the engine management system. Do they need different probes & such & does it require a glass EMS? This came up in one of the other Savannah threads recently. It may be worth doing a search of the more recent Savannah threads for the information. Reg Brost appears to sell the kit a bit differently for people using FADEC/injected engines. It may be worth getting in touch with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Is there anyone out there building a kit aircraft with the 912IS in it? I'm considering putting one in my savannah but don't know much about the engine management system. Do they need different probes & such & does it require a glass EMS? I just remembered the thread. Have a look at: http://recreationalflying.com/threads/savannah-s-dream-machine.132878/page-5#post-517703 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannahflyer Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 I was emailing Reg today. To be honest he didn't know a lot about it just yet, had said he just ordered a factory built one with the 912is and once that arrives he will know a lot more about it. I guess time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I was emailing Reg today. To be honest he didn't know a lot about it just yet, had said he just ordered a factory built one with the 912is and once that arrives he will know a lot more about it. I guess time will tell. I think it is still pretty much "cutting edge" technology for ICP. ICP, while trying to be innovative when new ideas come along (e.g. adopting John's vortex generators ...JG3 on this forum), they won't rush into things either. They will work things through methodically. No doubt, Reg will look at that Savannah with great interest when it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannahflyer Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 Luckily I have nothing but time on my hands since I'm not starting the build till next month. And I would imagine it will be many many more months till I require an engine!, hopefully by then more will be known about them, I may very well go with the 912s due to price & simplicity but the 912IS certainly intrigues me & I would like to learn more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I understand the fuel lines are required to run differently back to the wings so you will need to know pretty early if you are going to build the wings first. However, wiser heads should know these details better and it is probably worth waiting till Reg has a good look at one of these Savannahs. Meanwhile, the empennage can be built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 What about the Dmotor or UL although the UL is more expensive now. All reports so far it seems the Dmotor is extremely good...they have a larger 6cyl out I think now...120hp I think and also direct drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannahflyer Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 All though rotaxs are a lot more expensive the appeal to me is they have been proven for well over 20 years. Both the D motor & the UL are rather heavy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy s Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I was emailing Reg today. To be honest he didn't know a lot about it just yet, had said he just ordered a factory built one with the 912is and once that arrives he will know a lot more about it. I guess time will tell. I guess after a New motor is release like the 912is it takes a while for it to flow on into Kit form as a option to UlS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 All though rotaxs are a lot more expensive the appeal to me is they have been proven for well over 20 years. Both the D motor & the UL are rather heavy! You need to check your weights D-Motor 4 Cyl Dry Weight: 52 Kg (incl, exhaust, radiator and oil tank) Jabiru 4Cyl Dry Weight 63.8 kgs Complete Rotax 912is engine with propeller speed reduction unit 63.6 Exhaust system 4.8 Air guid hood 0.4 External alternator 3.0 Fuel pumps assay 1.6 Engine mount 2.0 Still needs Radiator, Oil Cooler etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannahflyer Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 I was looking at the 6 cylinder D motor & that's 78kgs dry. The 4 cylinder doesn't quiet have enough ponnies for my liking as I will be operating out of a pretty tight strip (less then 200m) at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I was looking at the 6 cylinder D motor & that's 78kgs dry. The 4 cylinder doesn't quiet have enough ponnies for my liking as I will be operating out of a pretty tight strip (less then 200m) at times. If that is the case then you should reconsider the 4 cyl D-motor. It actually gives far more torque than the 912iS The 912iS to give 135 NM torque needs to be set for 92.5 hp it will get 100 hp but then torque drops to121 nm The D-motor set at 92 hp gives 220 nm of torque. You need to compare apples with apples. PS the rotax with all the fittings included is 75.5 kgs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I was talking to a fellow sav flyer today at Pacific Haven and he tells me Graham in Ayr who is building a S model is putting in a 912IS in his. Graham is apparently having a few issues and it is a difficult install. Mods to the cowl as well required in a few places. I got a quote from the local Dmotor guy here on the 6 cyclinder (125 HP) which is now in production and they are $32360 delivered to my place. I didnt get a price on the 4 cycl one though as I am looking at the 125hp for a Rans S20 I am looking at for my next project The 912 is not really a 100 hp engine either...it is for 5 minutes at 5800 rpm but thats it. Max continuous is about 78HP from memory. The Dmotor at 92HP max but 88HP continuous will give better performance more likely as you should be able to swing a good prop on it due to the torque. http://www.d-motor.eu/nl/specifications-64.htm http://www.d-motor.eu/nl/specifications-38.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I may very well go with the 912s due to price & simplicity but the 912IS certainly intrigues me & I would like to learn more about it. That is where I got to with it, Guy has gone through the same process and arrived at the same point. Reg will crawl all over the factory installed 912iS with his camera and then we will all know a lot more about it. Have you bought your kit yet? If not you might be able to order a special kit for the iS motor now that the factory have done a fire wall forward kit for that motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I dont know if a private pilot will get value with the complexity and price of the 912IS unless they do a lot of flying A busy flight school doing 2000 hours and then selling it on condition would definitely get value for money 2000 * 18.5 = 37000 litres 2000 * 14 = 28 000 litres 9000 litres at $2 = $18000 saving minus the extra cost up front But will any private pilot realistically get anywhere near 2000 hours... I guess if you have very little useable weigh then the added fuel efficiency if you plan on extended trips is a HUGE bonus... up to 25% extra range Also if you cross ranges often and fly at high altitudes or near carb ice conditions, I guess its much better as it avoids carb icing issues I have only spoken with two guys with them and both had electrical issues of some sort a few months ago and Floods while being very helpful, where not able to resolve any issues at that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy s Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 That is where I got to with it, Guy has gone through the same process and arrived at the same point. Reg will crawl all over the factory installed 912iS with his camera and then we will all know a lot more about it.Have you bought your kit yet? If not you might be able to order a special kit for the iS motor now that the factory have done a fire wall forward kit for that motor. Yep and sometimes you got to put some things in the hard basket and go with simplicity. It's a nice thought modern technology and better fuel economy but at what expense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I was looking at the 6 cylinder D motor & that's 78kgs dry. The 4 cylinder doesn't quiet have enough ponnies for my liking as I will be operating out of a pretty tight strip (less then 200m) at times. ...PS the rotax with all the fittings included is 75.5 kgs. I was talking to a fellow sav flyer today at Pacific Haven and he tells me Graham in Ayr who is building a S model is putting in a 912IS in his. Graham is apparently having a few issues and it is a difficult install. Mods to the cowl as well required in a few places. I got a quote from the local Dmotor guy here on the 6 cyclinder (125 HP) which is now in production and they are $32360 delivered to my place. I didnt get a price on the 4 cycl one though as I am looking at the 125hp for a Rans S20 I am looking at for my next projectThe 912 is not really a 100 hp engine either...it is for 5 minutes at 5800 rpm but thats it. Max continuous is about 78HP from memory. The Dmotor at 92HP max but 88HP continuous will give better performance more likely as you should be able to swing a good prop on it due to the torque. http://www.d-motor.eu/nl/specifications-64.htm http://www.d-motor.eu/nl/specifications-38.htm I think the D-Motor sounds really good, especially when you consider that the 6 cylinder, 125 horsepower D-Motor is only 2.5 kg more than the 100 hp Rotax 912. The only niggling doubt in my mind is that not all that many have run long hours on this engine. I wonder how reliable it will be after, say, 1,400 hours of use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think the D-Motor sounds really good, especially when you consider that the 6 cylinder, 125 horsepower D-Motor is only 2.5 kg more than the 100 hp Rotax 912. The only niggling doubt in my mind is that not all that many have run long hours on this engine. I wonder how reliable it will be after, say, 1,400 hours of use? I agree totally. I have been in contact with one owner with over 400 hours but that is still a long way from 2000 and it is only 1. But there was a time when the 912 only had 1 motor with 400 plus hours on it as well. I am not sure but have Jabiru got any with that many hours yet? (I am just stiring people). Not to sure about CAMIT yet either, there are not to many high hour Camits around yet either. With the data that I have on the D-Motor, if I were building a plane, I would take a chance on it, in fact I nearly did with this one except for one small hiccup which is probably best not aired in this forum. With the additional info I have now given the same choice I would go with the D-Motor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 ...I am not sure but have Jabiru got any with that many hours yet? (I am just stiring people). I hope you have a good hard hat, Geoff! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 except for one small hiccup which is probably best not aired in this forum. Go on Geoff, tell us what is really on your mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannahflyer Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Yes I have already got an XL VG kit I brought the one that was for sale on here some months back. The 6 cylinder D motor sounds good but rather expensive! I can get a new 912S off Reg for $24500, I'm thinking at this point this seems like the way to go. With the money I save I might invest in auto pilot and few other little bits & pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Yes I have already got an XL VG kit I brought the one that was for sale on here some months back. The 6 cylinder D motor sounds good but rather expensive! I can get a new 912S off Reg for $24500, I'm thinking at this point this seems like the way to go. With the money I save I might invest in auto pilot and few other little bits & pieces. Decisions, decisions. Is it the money, performance or immediate delivery that is your most important consideration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planesmaker Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Torque figures on the rotax have to be multiplied by the gearbox ratio ie 2.43 x 135 nm = 328nm a little more than 220nm Not sure of operating revs of d motor but rotax prop speed is around 2350 which allows for a bigger more efficient prop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannahflyer Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 STOL performance of the 912s in the Savannah is more then enough. More cruise speed would be nice but I don't know if more hp would achieve that given it's such a draggy aircraft. I haven't started building just yet so I have time on my side. Reliability is probably my biggest consideration and I'm pretty confident I will get 2000 hrs out of a 912. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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