DGL Fox Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Hi All, Just read this crash report (see attached) and as I was reading it I thought that this could quite easily be me, the small things that you are supposed to do before we fly? I am a low hours pilot myself and I have been guilty of missing items off my checklist like, being distracted by my passenger like being not quite on top of my game on a particular day, on the "small things" After reading this story I think have I been like this, shortcutting my checks and I have to say yes to this, no it wasn't anything major or life threatening but these are the things I have noticed and that I am trying to not repeat, because, if you read the story we can see that it is not one single event or a single miss that lead to the crash but a lot of little single "misses" that led to this event but a whole lot of silly little ones that we may have got away with previously. I think there is a thread here about checklists and I think some posters said that they don't use one or we should just memorize them so that we don't need to use a an actual hard copy, well I don't subscribe to that, as a low hour pilot I don't think I could be comfortable just going off my memory, I am not 20 yrs old anymore, I think for each flight before you push in that throttle you should be clear in your mind and take those few seconds to assure yourself that you have done everything that you needed to do to ensure you and possibly your passenger will arrive back on the ground in the condition that they left it... There are just too many things in our life that can affect how we fly and what we do to make it a safe flight every time every time we go up whether it a LSA/ trike or paraglider. Please don't skip the "little things" as they can all add up to something big that no one wants most of all you and your loved one sitting beside you.... Please lets all have a wonderful and safe Christmas and 2017 so we can all enjoy our flying with our friends and family... David Final destination: Birmingham | Flight Safety Australia 1 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 If you feel more confident using a checklist, then use a checklist. If your checks are simple enough to memorise and you want to do it that way, then do it that way. Just because "back in the good ol' days" they did it a certain way, doesn't mean it was a sensible way. Back in the good ol' days they also had quite high accident rates. Pilot's need to do what they feel is safest for them and not be pressured into thinking they're being some sort of whimp. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkennard Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I don't fly enough so I use check lists. I wrote my own database after having played with others on the iPad and preferred mine. This is using FileMaker and runs on the iPad. I probably went over the top with the info there but I was on a roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I don't fly enough so I use check lists. I wrote my own database after having played with others on the iPad and preferred mine. This is using FileMaker and runs on the iPad. I probably went over the top with the info there but I was on a roll.[ATTACH=full]47186[/ATTACH] All good MK. I am aware Jabiru recommend '10 secs for oil pressure', but personally I wouldn't leave the ground if the pressure wasn't up in less than half this time ..... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 The sequence of checks/actions can sometimes be important too. For instance, in a Jabiru it is necessary to set the TRIM AFTER the "CONTROLS full, free and correct" check as, if you do it properly, this check will result in almost full back trim being set. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkennard Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 The sequence of checks/actions can sometimes be important too.For instance, in a Jabiru it is necessary to set the TRIM AFTER the "CONTROLS full, free and correct" check as, if you do it properly, this check will result in almost full back trim being set. I personally do the trim afterwards but looks like it's missing off the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Hi All,Just read this crash report (see attached) and as I was reading it I thought that this could quite easily be me, the small things that you are supposed to do before we fly? I am a low hours pilot myself and I have been guilty of missing items off my checklist like, being distracted by my passenger like being not quite on top of my game on a particular day, on the "small things" After reading this story I think have I been like this, shortcutting my checks and I have to say yes to this, no it wasn't anything major or life threatening but these are the things I have noticed and that I am trying to not repeat, because, if you read the story we can see that it is not one single event or a single miss that lead to the crash but a lot of little single "misses" that led to this event but a whole lot of silly little ones that we may have got away with previously. I think there is a thread here about checklists and I think some posters said that they don't use one or we should just memorize them so that we don't need to use a an actual hard copy, well I don't subscribe to that, as a low hour pilot I don't think I could be comfortable just going off my memory, I am not 20 yrs old anymore, I think for each flight before you push in that throttle you should be clear in your mind and take those few seconds to assure yourself that you have done everything that you needed to do to ensure you and possibly your passenger will arrive back on the ground in the condition that they left it... There are just too many things in our life that can affect how we fly and what we do to make it a safe flight every time every time we go up whether it a LSA/ trike or paraglider. Please don't skip the "little things" as they can all add up to something big that no one wants most of all you and your loved one sitting beside you.... Please lets all have a wonderful and safe Christmas and 2017 so we can all enjoy our flying with our friends and family... David Final destination: Birmingham | Flight Safety Australia I know exactly what you mean David. Once I did gloss over a checklist item which resulted in a very unpleasant experience. Fortunately I was not in the air at the time, but it scared the hell out of me. I don't gloss over the checklists anymore. I respect them and their ability to help me conduct all my flights safely. Tony. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted December 9, 2016 Author Share Posted December 9, 2016 Well looking at the average age of RAA membership most of us are over 45 and with some of us our memories are not as sharp as they were when we were 20, I see some people say that if the checklist is simple just memorize it and that's ok but I just wonder how many of us go back to the start of the checklist or go back to the start in our minds if we are distracted by something outside or inside the cockpit? It is very easy to miss something if we are disturbed while doing your checks.. David 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Well as we have learned, some move the "lever" the wrong way or just recite the list and don't actually do the check at all. I was with a check Captain and experienced a full hydraulic failure but he had just given a perfect response word wise and missed completely the 3 indications relating to the check that would have shown the situation quite clearly. This was particularly notable as I am always deliberate about responses and he had argued with me many times over the years requiring that the responses be rattled off rapidly or you didn't have the subject covered. What you don't want is to overly complicate it or make you checklist a condensed "learn to fly by 50 easy steps" condensed manual. Most planes we fly are simple and the essential items are not a lot, and all planes have a basic minimum you should check or YOU ARE NOT SAFE. I have frequently mentioned situational awareness and managing a flight. If you don't have a fair bit of both working for you, it's only a matter of time before something comes unstuck with your flying. Your familiarity may give you a feeling of things being more relaxed, but YOU can be TOO relaxed. You can relax into an undisciplined "she'll be right" attitude easily. You will see people around you doing it often, trying to give the impression there's not much to this flying game really. What are you sissies on about? The discipline comes from the "self" when no one is around to pick you up on something. It's very much up to you which way you go. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkway Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Hi All,Just read this crash report (see attached) and as I was reading it I thought that this could quite easily be me, the small things that you are supposed to do before we fly? I am a low hours pilot myself and I have been guilty of missing items off my checklist like, being distracted by my passenger like being not quite on top of my game on a particular day, on the "small things" I think there is a thread here about checklists and I think some posters said that they don't use one or we should just memorize them so that we don't need to use a an actual hard copy, well I don't subscribe to that, as a low hour pilot I don't think I could be comfortable just going off my memory, I am not 20 yrs old anymore, I think for each flight before you push in that throttle you should be clear in your mind and take those few seconds to assure yourself that you have done everything that you needed to do to ensure you and possibly your passenger will arrive back on the ground in the condition that they left it... Final destination: Birmingham | Flight Safety Australia I think the post you're referring to wasn't saying we shouldn't have hard copies of checklist, more that we should have flow checks (especially at critical stages of flight/emergencies) that are memorised, and then checklists are used to confirm. Rather than having your head down for a few minutes reading a checklist item by item and not keeping your eyes out and flying the plane. I don't think any sane person would say just memorise al checklists and don't bother carrying a paper copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Whether you memorise the checks, or whether you pull out a list and read it, is not as signicant as not doing them. Here's my all time favourite; we didn't bother with downwind checks because we didn't bother. We didn't bother with a last minute double check on final because we were carving through a clever military turn to land. Even though the gear horn is blaring over and over again, it didn't register because our mindset was away with the fairies talking sh!t. I'm not saying I haven't forgotten things, because I have, and in going through the checks, even though I tap the item, when I test myself now and then, by asking myself what the oil pressure was after the check, I sometimes find I don't have the faintest clue. The subconscious has probably scanned the gauge and found the needle in the right sector, but with checks you should consciously know. How anyone ignored that blaring horn, I wouldn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 It would be possible, IF you were really focussing on something else. Most gear up landings have the warning working. When you give something ALL your attention that apparently means ALL, and other things don't register. There is also no doubt that most will just cancel a warning horn (where it is possible) without actually noting WHAT particular thing the master caution was responding to, and it may be multiple warnings one after the other if they are associated. You can still pull them up for reference. Audible warnings can be very distracting and not always helpful if you can't cancel them. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 We didn't bother with a last minute double check on final because we were carving through a clever military turn to land. I've been doing military base turns my whole life in the circuit pattern and have never forgotten "final" checks (where they are applicable) or landed gear up in the retractables I've flown. A continuous base turn is actually a very sound technique, no more difficult to learn than a square one (actually easier in some respects), and is proven to work well. The showing off chatting to the passengers might've had something to do with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 The gear warning horn usually activates if the throttle is nearly closed on a basic set up, and ALL gear is not down and locked, but all sorts of logic can be employed to suit the plane's characteristics. You can get a" too low .. gear" from the GPWS.( Ground proximity Warning System). On most aircraft the gear extended creates significant drag and associated noise that you notice as soon as the gear doors open IF you end up a bit high the gear might be extended a fair way out. You use everything you have if you need it.Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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