ATSB criticised for refusing to investigate Gympie plane crash that killed two pilots

[jackc]

Given todays environment, it pays to say NOTHING about any incident you heard from the Grapevine, a trusted source or anywhere else.  Because at worst IF it blows up as an investigation?  You could well end up with a Subpoena stuffed into your top pocket with an appearance date…….

Happened to me twice in my life, and one investigation went on for 6 years……

[facthunter]

Australian Aviation works?? under some quite ridiculous rules. First It's a Law of STRICT liability that no free and thinking person would ever volunteer to be bound by. Secondly YOU are REQUIRED to report within 48 hours if you become aware of any possible risk to Aviation that you may become aware of. No "IF's or Buts" and that applies to civilians too.. THEY have also designed CONFIDENTIAL CAIR reporting schemes  where you are Anonymous (supposedly). Does that seem strange?. The stated MAIN reason to Investigate has been to diminish the chances of a repeat anywhere by education and rule changes etc. NOT just Getting some poor "b" who erred and ground him/her forever. or hitting people with points loss and fines with NO real way oof defending themselves under the existing system.. Nev

[jackc]

You want Spooks to visit your house?  I found how easy that was, stuff being moved on RPT for nefarious purposes.  Contrary to popular belief……they don’t turn up in Black Helicopters either.  White rental Corollas, not wanting to blow their budget…….

[facthunter]

Most people "out there" don't have the slightest clue as to what is and has been going on  for years, unaddressed in Our precious  Country. Nev

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Australian Aviation works?? under some quite ridiculous rules. First It's a Law of STRICT liability that no free and thinking person would ever volunteer to be bound by. Secondly YOU are REQUIRED to report within 48 hours if you become aware of any possible risk to Aviation that you may become aware of. No "IF's or Buts" and that applies to civilians too.. THEY have also designed CONFIDENTIAL CAIR reporting schemes  where you are Anonymous (supposedly). Does that seem strange?. The stated MAIN reason to Investigate has been to diminish the chances of a repeat anywhere by education and rule changes etc. NOT just Getting some poor "b" who erred and ground him/her forever. or hitting people with points loss and fines with NO real way oof defending themselves under the existing system.. Nev

You're talking about GA, which operates under prescribed regulation as we all did prior to about 1985.

 

RA does have to comply with some of that because RA aircraft use the same airspace, but also requires duty of care to eliminate all reasonably forseeable risks, so there are two regimes to learn, the second much more relaxing than the first because you know what you absolutely can't do.

[facthunter]

Sometimes it Takes the "EXPERTS" weeks to decide what you had seconds to. . THEY have a duty to make the rules clear and useable in the fielda s far as is possible. Blatant disregard  is easy but really IF something goes wrong they will go looking for blood in any case.  That's the system we operate under still..  Nev

[jackc]

And they won’t stop until they get that blood, even at the wrong person's expense?

[turboplanner]

7 minutes ago, jackc said:

And they won’t stop until they get that blood, even at the wrong person's expense?

Is there any evidence of this?

[jackc]

Maybe less chance in Aviation, but it happens often in general society seen in wrongful convictions. Nothing is perfect but to those involved the outcome, can be horrendous.  

[facthunter]

Those who are involved know what's going on. Like everything. The truth is not thrust in front of you in lights. Do the police always go after the correct person? . The "deep Pockets" effect means people just accept it rather than try . It's the system. One sided . The CASA person behind the counter is not the problem.  Nev

[jackc]

Yes, and people wonder WHY I get  pissed off  with b/s rules that we are overloaded with these days.  MORE chance on being wrongly accused, so long as they get someone to drop a nose around the neck of who they think should wear it……..

[turboplanner]

10 hours ago, jackc said:

Yes, and people wonder WHY I get  pissed off  with b/s rules that we are overloaded with these days.  MORE chance on being wrongly accused, so long as they get someone to drop a nose around the neck of who they think should wear it……..

Why did you take up flying then?

[jackc]

Seems I mistakenly thought it was a place for a more professional hobby than staying on the ground.  I started by picking the wrong Flying School who could have been far better. What CFI tees up a beat up run on his mates house so his mate gets a photo op with me on board as a student?  Here I am thinking CASA will be waiting for us back at the hangar with handcuffs?   THEN keeps my flying hours money I am in credit because of COVID and can’t go back to use them up?

Does not send my log books on to my new school, calais he sent them by ordinary post, not registered 😞 

And YOU wonder WHY I have run out of F’’s to give about rules? 

And then do mention the flying death trap I ended up with as result of a dodgy LAME?  So I rely on the good old RAA and basically NO F’s to give there, either  😞 

F…..I should have stayed on the ground doing donuts in my rusty $300 Corolla, might have been more fun 🙂 

[turboplanner]

3 minutes ago, jackc said:

Seems I mistakenly thought it was a place for a more professional hobby than staying on the ground.  I started by picking the wrong Flying School who could have been far better. What CFI tees up a beat up run on his mates house so his mate gets a photo op with me on board as a student?  Here I am thinking CASA will be waiting for us back at the hangar with handcuffs?   THEN keeps my flying hours money I am in credit because of COVID and can’t go back to use them up?

Does not send my log books on to my new school, calais he sent them by ordinary post, not registered 😞 

And YOU wonder WHY I have run out of F’’s to give about rules? 

And then do mention the flying death trap I ended up with as result of a dodgy LAME?  So I rely on the good old RAA and basically NO F’s to give there, either  😞 

F…..I should have stayed on the ground doing donuts in my rusty $300 Corolla, might have been more fun 🙂 

Well here you are complaining about someone who doesn't follow rules, which could have hurt you.

Flying safety is more complicated because it started earlier with public opinion on the frequent crashes of the early pioneers, then in WW2 when things like more people killed in Beaufighter training than active service created an Australian industry that proudly boasted it was the safest in the world.

Not surprisingly that resulted in a lot of rules. Goes with the territory.

[jackc]

There are rules the should be written, that aren’t. There are rules that are written that should not have been. But our sh1t hot rule makers don’t know the difference.

Common sense people can see it, but those who should…..don’t.

When I do anything, I make my own risk assessment for the safety of others firstly, the look at the risk for myself……so I am still here on Earth and must not have screwed up so far…..

[jackc]

14 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Is there any evidence of this?

Turbs, todays example 😞

 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/two-men-wrongfully-convicted-of-murder-walk-free-25-years-later-after-podcast-uncovers-new-evidence/news-story/95b0a20d3664af2c310590950e33d5b7

[turboplanner]

46 minutes ago, jackc said:

Turbs, todays example 😞

 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/two-men-wrongfully-convicted-of-murder-walk-free-25-years-later-after-podcast-uncovers-new-evidence/news-story/95b0a20d3664af2c310590950e33d5b7

Probably commercial pilots. They’ve got deep pockets.

 

[aro]

20 hours ago, turboplanner said:

ARO said:

 

CASA have been watering down the rules around uncontrolled airfields for as long as I have been flying.

20 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I think you'll find the SAOs needed to  replace those rules.

20 hours ago, turboplanner said:

No one has suggested making rules that duplicate CASA rules.

If you can explain what you were suggesting then?

 

The areas where RAA are self administering are pretty well defined. They don't include rules of the air. RAA are a small part of aviation and they operate in the same airfields and airspace as the rest of GA. They can't use their own set of rules.

 

(Technically I suppose you could have a RAA rule requiring a minimum of 3 legs of a circuit be flown, but I doubt that is what was intended when CASA abolished that rule.)

Edited December 11, 2022 by aro

[turboplanner]

25 minutes ago, aro said:

If you can explain what you were suggesting then?

Just because CASA have been altering down or deleting prescriptive rules, if they are to offload liability on to users,  that means RAA & you. You have the duty of care to prevent all reasonablly forseeable risks.

 

Newcomers to the industry are not going to know what those risks are, someone has to be able to tell them, and who better than the Self Administering Organisation.

 

Others like benchmarks where, as long as they are conforming to the benchmark they are safe from being sued.

 

If you look at the SAAA operations, from the time you get out of your car to the time you leave, common risks and mishaps are addressed.

 

From the time an RA owner or pilot gets out of his car to the time he leaves - crickets.

(except for a few admin rules and CASA rules)

25 minutes ago, aro said:

 

The areas where RAA are self administering are pretty well defined.

Other than what's missing - Rules, Supervision, Compliance and Enforcement

25 minutes ago, aro said:

They can't use their own set of rules.

I previously gave the comparison of SSAA with their own rules, but not overwriting Police rules.

This is the same; it wouldn't suprise me if a lot of people don't know the difference between RAA and CASA rules, and that's indicated by some students just receiving suggestions to buy a book on radio, nav,P&O instead of conducting Classes.

25 minutes ago, aro said:

(Technically I suppose you could have a RAA rule requiring a minimum of 3 legs of a circuit be flown, but I doubt that is what was intended when CASA abolished that rule.)

That wasn't what I meant; that's still a CASA rule of the air, so RA comply with the CASA rule.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

When I do anything, I make my own risk assessment for the safety of others firstly, the look at the risk for myself……so I am still here on Earth and must not have screwed up so far…..

Step 1

You're in fact practising Self Administration and duty of care to eliminate risks.

 

Step 2

Someone else sees you and wants to do what you're doing, so you sit there, scratch your head and quantify on paper what you said above.

They are the rules we are talking about; they usually start with: "For safety I recommend....."

 

The rules cannot be the thoughts of idiots; they must be based on provable benchmarks such as Australian Standards etc., something which will stand up in Court if you have complied with it.

 

With the two of you you have a Self Administering Organisation. 

I've oversimplified it but not by much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old man emu]

On 05/12/2022 at 11:18 AM, Blueadventures said:

On 05/12/2022 at 9:33 AM, turboplanner said:

 

I reckon the Coroner will not be impressed that ATSB have not provided an investigation as an expert opinion report containing information will not be available to him.

You would be amazed at the powers of the Coroner when it comes to inquiring into all matters relating to a reported death. You have to remember that other organisations with the skills and expertise to provide the information that the Coroner wants can be called upon by the Coroner to do so. 

 

I think that, once again, the Media must bear the blame for a disinterest in the investigation of aircraft incidents. From the first reports of Icarus' crash, the Media have used words like 'plummet' in cliche-ridden reports. The Media perpetuates "if Man was meant to fly ...  " by constantly, and without correction, implying that leaving the ground in any sort of machine is tantamount to signing one's own Death Warrant, and every successful flight is a long-odds result in the race for survival.

 

As for rules, Moses came down from the mountain with ten. Experience and the growth in the sophistication of civilisation has resulted in the kilometres of shelf space occupied by by the rules needed for our civilisation to function. The rules of Moses are immutable, but those arising from civilisation's experience and sophistication are mutable. More can be made, and the redundant erased.

[turboplanner]

That wasn't my quote: There will be a link between the two bodies somewhere.

[jackc]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Step 1

You're in fact practising Self Administration and duty of care to eliminate risks.

 

Step 2

Someone else sees you and wants to do what you're doing, so you sit there, scratch your head and quantify on paper what you said above.

They are the rules we are talking about; they usually start with: "For safety I recommend....."

 

The rules cannot be the thoughts of idiots; they must be based on provable benchmarks such as Australian Standards etc., something which will stand up in Court if you have complied with it.

 

With the two of you you have a Self Administering Organisation. 

I've oversimplified it but not by much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyday I see stuff ups in new road markings making it even more difficult for vehicles to negotiate, mainly bigger and older vehicles, although I get my best entertainment watch Dodge RAMs battling the shopping centre car parks.  I break rules every day on a have to basis.  Minor ones, but none the less they are rules. ALL of which we did not have years ago and didn’t  need back then nor need them today.   Rules are made for the DUMB people on earth…..the rest use their own judgement and commonsense to the level they have. 

Do you like the 100 hour learner driver log time?   Car drivers must be more dense the pilots since a RPC should be achievable in about 30 hours?   Would you think we need to change the RPC to 100 hours and that would make them better pilots? 

Change the rules for what some idiot bureaucracy wants?  In the AUF days there was nothing, you could almost jump in and fly……AND crash.    You can do the same today with all the qualifications you like…….I flew into a willy willy on approach the other day, saw no dust etc……..lucky I had a instructor or I could have been making love, to the ground.  

Now, we should have new rule that says Willy Willys should not come within a certain distance of an airstrip. Life will always have its elements of risk,   regardless of rules.

 

[turboplanner]

41 minutes ago, jackc said:

Everyday I see stuff ups in new road markings making it even more difficult for vehicles to negotiate, mainly bigger and older vehicles, although I get my best entertainment watch Dodge RAMs battling the shopping centre car parks.  I break rules every day on a have to basis.  Minor ones, but none the less they are rules. ALL of which we did not have years ago and didn’t  need back then nor need them today.   Rules are made for the DUMB people on earth…..the rest use their own judgement and commonsense to the level they have. 

Do you like the 100 hour learner driver log time?   Car drivers must be more dense the pilots since a RPC should be achievable in about 30 hours?   Would you think we need to change the RPC to 100 hours and that would make them better pilots? 

Change the rules for what some idiot bureaucracy wants?  In the AUF days there was nothing, you could almost jump in and fly……AND crash.    You can do the same today with all the qualifications you like…….I flew into a willy willy on approach the other day, saw no dust etc……..lucky I had a instructor or I could have been making love, to the ground.  

Now, we should have new rule that says Willy Willys should not come within a certain distance of an airstrip. Life will always have its elements of risk,   regardless of rules.

 

Focus; you were almost there.

(a) You're practising Self Administration

(b) It needs to be loaded; not much point with an empty weapon.

(c) The SSAA rules I mentioned earlier area a good way to see the steps, rules, reasons behind             them.

(d) Focus is first; forget solving the road toll or picking on RAMs for trying to squeeze into parking spots; they'll pull a 3 tonne trailer and carry a load in the tray all day at 100 km/hr and you can still pass slow traffic; they're for a specifica application.

Edited December 12, 2022 by turboplanner

[facthunter]

Just to pick up on the willy willy's. When the mass of air rises it takes anything with it not just small planes, and if there's no dust or loose leaves it's invisible so you can't be sure what's happening.. It's an  extremely dangerous situation  requiring very positive actions and sometimes some luck to survive it. Nev