Guest Qwerty Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 What is the question??? I fail to understand the question. As I understand it; 1. Solo pilots prior to certification remain under the supervision of an instructor. They can fly circuits and if the training area is within sight of the field that can fly in the training area also. 2. Certified pilots without xcountry can fly up to 25 Nm from the strip. I guess the thinking is that if you got this far, you are probably smart enough to find you own way home in this restricted area without getting lost. 3. Pilots with xcountry can fly anywhere in Aust and NZ. (And with GA xcountry anywhere in the world.) So where is the big step, whats not to understand. please help, I really dont know what the question is. Cheers, David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I fail to understand the question. As I understand it;1. Solo pilots prior to certification remain under the supervision of an instructor. They can fly circuits and if the training area is within sight of the field that can fly in the training area also. 2. Certified pilots without xcountry can fly up to 25 Nm from the strip. I guess the thinking is that if you got this far, you are probably smart enough to find you own way home in this restricted area without getting lost. 3. Pilots with xcountry can fly anywhere in Aust and NZ. (And with GA xcountry anywhere in the world.) So where is the big step, whats not to understand. please help, I really dont know what the question is. Cheers, David. The question was "can a certified RAAus pilot without a Nav endorsement land at another airfield within the 25nm radius of his base airfield" and the answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 It is easy to look at this from a pilots perspective, we all feel smart enough to find our way home or to our destination but take a step back and think about the CFI or instructor who puts his signature on the dotted line and allows you to be cut loose! what does he feel and what sort of a grilling is he subjected to in that one in a thousand event when something goes wrong? if a tracking device was fitted to the ac (portable) then this would allow the CFI to give you more room to move and more freedom with the added knowledge that should something go wrong he can call you on the radio or your mobile and say hey all you need to do is alter course to??? and you are back on track, so in reality it is giving freedom not taking it away and that has to be a good thing for an instructor to feel that he has more control over the training and therefor should he need to explain himself he can do so with a more informed explanation. All training should consider what is the worst thing that can happen, not just the best senario and be targetted in the middle somewhere. Watto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Yes Turbo that is true, and really training should provide a safety net such as a tracking device put on the AC for the first few flights that can be observed on line by the school similar to trucks and that would give that added safety, the device could be remove when several solo navs have been completed.Watto What a brilliant idea. There are also other good reasons for not departing from your own Training Area, as we'll all see if I can get off my bum and free up some time from my present contract to write the next instalment of Performance and Operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (Just love the rolling on the floor laughing smilie from Ozzie.) Ok, I shouldn't say anything, but here is what I was told: Once you have your licence, you can fly up to 25 nm from your "starting" airport. You must also avoid controlled airspace, restriced areas and all that stuff too. You can NOT land at another airport within that area. You are not familiar with it and so have to return to your "starting" airport at the end of each trip. This is not to say it doesn't happen. I am sure it does and I can't comment on what happens if there is an accident. There may be times when it is ok too. I don't know the specifics so shall leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 You won't be a flying dog for long doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (Just love the rolling on the floor laughing smilie from Ozzie. You can NOT land at another airport within that area. You are not familiar with it and so have to return to your "starting" airport at the end of each trip.) I am sure that you CAN land within 25 NM, it is legal. Flying Dog, YOU might not be allowed to land because your instructor doesn't want you doing outlandings HIS aeroplane. Cheers, David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (Just love the rolling on the floor laughing smilie from Ozzie.) You can NOT land at another airport within that area. You are not familiar with it and so have to return to your "starting" airport at the end of each trip. Well I've been advised that you can land at another airport within that 25nm. I know it doesn't state in the RAAus Ops Manual that you can't land at another airfield so maybe it's up to the CFI at that particular school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 It is my understanding you can land elsewhere if you have your pilot cert but not when just solo as long as within 25 nm radius. As stated though the instructor may not wish to have his ac landed elsewhere as he will have to drive out to pick up the bits if you cart wheel it down another strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Training. To do cross country, you should be trained for it. If it wasn't necessary there wouldn't be a training course. EVEN when you have done it ,you should consolidate with some more flying soon after you qualify, as you have only done a minimum. 25 miles is a big enough distance to get into trouble, depending on visibility and your ability at orienting yourself. How many times have you been out in the training area and been busy doing your training sequence and the instructor has had to tell you where you were, or which way it is to home. Why not wait till you have done the x/c endorsement before you take your loved ones for a ride, away from the circuit? Nev.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Just for those who aren't familiar with the Bunbury to Busselton route, it's about 19nm and coastal all the way. I've lived in this area most my life and pretty familiar with it. I also fly to Busselton on a regular basis for work. So an opportunity has come up and according to the RAAus OpsMan can do this flight, so why not then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 You're not listening Brett, and worse, you've given others a chance at a loophole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Why not? You are legal to do it and in this case you have a coastline to aid you. As a principle I will stick to my post above. There would have to be some things in the x/c course which would be of benefit surely? Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 You are legal to do it and in this case you have a coastline to aid you. As a principle I will stick to my post above. There would have to be some things in the x/c course which would be of benefit surely? Nev Absolutly and I've still got some hours to do to gain my x/c but while my instructor is away and the aircraft I do my navs in is unavailable, I figure it's a good chance to go flying within the boundaries of being a certified RAAus pilot. Turbo: I don't understand what you're getting at, how do you mean a loophole? What's wrong with doing what I am about to go and do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 The wording says it all: 'under the supervision and control of a CFI' .................otherwise do your x/c. So, it's what the CFI decides, so ask him first. It will be too late when he gets a query from the Busselton end. It would be most unlikely a CFI would approve this unless the student had been using the other airport during training and was thoroughly familiar with it. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Things like altitude differential, pattern habits of the destination airfield, weight and balance, alternates, weather issues etc which you learn as you do the Nav phase. Also, having lived in the area, I presume that's on the ground - orientation can be a problem from the air if you haven't flown over the area. Finally the old "I only ever fly when the weather is good trick" which brings so many unstuck in the most obvious locations - what's plan B if fog/cloud brankets the coast. Maybe none of these comes into play with your flight, but I'll bet a lot of people have read these posts and thought they would do something similar, when the vital Nav and cross country learning is only a few hours from completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Yes, Dexter, but the worry is that he is in no man's land - considered to have the skills to fly the aircraft in familiar circumstances, but not to navigate it. This can be a dangerous little no man's land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 OR? Student any time.. X/C endorsement.. add or any other endorsement, training or required training/revalidation/currency. (my words).. I have a B 727 endorsement on my student pilot licence. ( Bit unusual but there you are. None of my other licences were current). The thing about this X/C thing is that it is a bit of an anomaly in my view and allows the possibility of pilots exposing themselves to situations that they are not trained for. Bit like going solo without being taught how to execute a go-around or bounced landing recovery... Would look silly if you ended up in court. (Always a good test, hopefully hypothetically)...Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Yes, Dexter, but the worry is that he is in no man's land - considered to have the skills to fly the aircraft in familiar circumstances, but not to navigate it. This can be a dangerous little no man's land. What do you classify as "no man's land"? It's a coastal trip of 20nm in a straight line. Just to let you know, the CFI of the school has authorised the flight. Also, I know the area both from the ground and the air. We do a lot of training in this area in the work aircraft and to top it off, yes I know how to use and read a METAR as it's not only used in my RAAus flying but work as well. I wouldn't do this flight if I didn't think I was capable of doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 No man's land in this case wasn't geographical, but in the area Facthunter said. If your CFI approved this, I'm curious as to why "RA Ops" was involved and why you would put the question on a Forum with mixed experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 No man's land in this case wasn't geographical, but in the area Facthunter said.If your CFI approved this, I'm curious as to why "RA Ops" was involved and why you would put the question on a Forum with mixed experience. I put the question up before booking the aircraft and talking with the CFI, just wanted to get the answer off some of the CFI's here. RA Ops was never involved, I did mention the RAAus Ops Manual though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Why not wait till you have done the x/c endorsement before you take your loved ones for a ride, away from the circuit? Nev. During my training my instructor encouraged me to leave the circuit, this being essential in order to practise things like stalls, turns circuit departures and entries etc. During my training we covered a lot of the surrounding 25nm. Although I have got 70 hours up now I have not done (for various reasons ie work, money, time) my xcountry yet (although I have done much of the required theory). If I had stayed in the circuit for 70 hours I probably would have quit by now I really can't see that what Brett is proposing is so outragous as long as it is within the regs and the rental agreement and is carried out in a safe manner and with due regard to the weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeK Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 The wording says it all: 'under the supervision and control of a CFI' .................otherwise do your x/c. Minor correction - you do not need CFI supervision to fly within the 25nm radius if you have your RA-Aus pilot certificate. If outside 25nm, then you either need your XC endorsement or you must be under the direct supervision and control of a CFI. RA-Aus Operations Manual 2.07-3 Despite legalities, I'd be personally reluctant to venture too far without full XC endo - how far is too far, well it depends I guess. Where I fly there are plenty of landmarks to guide you home, other places there may not be. I take turbo's point about weather, but that applies in any case ..... Landing at a new strip? I guess I'd be happier if I'd tried a few different ones first with the instructor in the RH seat, just to see how I could handle different situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Sorry Brett, the jargon got me - OpsMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Sorry Brett, the jargon got me - OpsMan All good mate, it's a Navy thing from day's gone by! :thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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