Guest Pioneer200 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 It seems that people either love jabs or hate jabs Tell us why you either love or hate them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Donky, perhaps people are dissatistied with the Reputation-by-roumor of the power plant. The people that actually own them don't seem to be that dissatisfied with the actual engine, it seems to be the roumors that people (non owners) react to. From what I have been able to learn the jab powerplant if fine if it is treated properly. I haved watched Eugene's jabs circuit bashing for years and thousands of hours. Yep he has problems but nothing much that fully justifies to me the negative remarks that the jab engines get OCCASIONALLY from non owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shags_j Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Price is good and they are reliable. Hate the centre control and after flying a tecnam never want to fly a jab again. They just seem to take forever to get in the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The difficulty with these regular threads on Jabiru engine reliablity is that there isn't much hard data to base them on. Critics say they see or hear of lots of engine failures - owners say thats simply because there are so many of them flying & quote examples that have been trouble free for thousands of hours. So I got to thinking about how, with the limited data publicly available, it might be possible to get some reliability data independent of the numbers of aircraft with a particular engine. The best I could come up with was to use the information on the RAAus members market for second hand aircraft. So I've been through about 3 years worth looking at the engine / airframe hours of all the adverts for Jabiru aircraft with the 2200 engine. I tried to filter out repeat ads for the same plane (though its not always obvious) and some planes may have been sold more than once during the period. Some adverts don't list engine hours - I included these by assuming they were the same as the airframe. I'm not au fait with all the Jabiru models so in some cases I wasn't sure whether a particular model had a 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder engine. I left these out as well as any which I knew (or which stated) that they had 6 cyl engines. I also didn't included any Jab engines in non-Jabiru aircraft (so home designed installations shouldn't be a factor). This left a total of over 60 adverts. Obviously planes for sale aren't a random sample - maybe owners who have had problems with a plane are more likely to sell them. Or maybe having spent money to fix problems, they are more likely to keep them - who knows. There is no way to know anything about the diligence, competence or mechanical empathy of the vendors. There is also no way to know whether the planes had an early or more recent engine nor whether the claimed hours are even accurate. And, of course, there are a variety of explanations for an aircraft having more airframe than engine hours. My results therefore aren't presented as exact percentages (lest they create a false impression of mathematical precision). However I did find it interesting that - More than 1 third of the adverts indicated more airframe hours than engine hours. Of this third, less than half had a difference of 900 hours or greater. The remainder averaged approx 300 more hours on the airframe than the engine. Of the aircraft with identical airframe and engine hours, more than 3 quarters had under 300 hours. The rest were pretty evenly split between less than 900 hours and more than 900 hours. One aircraft had more engine hours than airframe Make of this what you will ! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Interesting. The only way to get a reduction in engine hours is to replace it with another engine that is new or has LESS hours, or rebuild it to ZERO time specs. Even though the engine does get a bit of comment (which may be valid or not) the aircraft is worthy of assessment as a package. The number of them out there has to be a good indicator of something. There was a Renault advert about years ago which went something like "50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong.......". Not everybody likes the same plane or the same motorbike. It's a very personal thing and it is, whatever suits YOU. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foto_Flyer Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Maybe some of the bad rep comes from the early days of Jabiru, where they used the Italian KFM engines. These engines were not too reliable (and there weren't too many Jabiru's in service either) and I know of at least one operator who subsequently "ditched" their training Jabs and went back to C150/152's as a result. Of course, this was almost 20 years ago, but I know some who are still wary of Jabs down to this day as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relfy Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 I love the rugged toughness. I've seen some jabs put through some amazing terrain and the pilot and pax walk out, albeit with a few injuries. They are amazingly strong planes and will not come apart easily. I also like the comfort and the fact that I can afford to buy one one day as an average person without MD after my name. Sure you don't have woodgrained door trims and centre console fridges, but the appointments are pretty nice all the same. The engine is getting better and is currently very nice. The 170 I fly now has over 1100hrs on the engine/airframe and the only prob it's ever had was with a leaking valve, replaced quickly and back into service. My CFI also says that the engine likes to be worked and used regularly. If you baby it, then you won't get the life out of it. What's more Jabiru are an aussie aviation company that have survived well over the past 15-20 years and are forging ahead. That is unique to Australian aviation and they should be commended for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Hey Shags, why the hate on the centre console, I assume that you are refering to the centre stick. I like it for several reasons, its simple, there is only one so there is more room of other stuff, they dont get in the way of maps, ERSA, lunch on your lap, your Pax, doesnt have a usless waggling stick between her legs :raise_eyebrow: , it is usable by the pax (if she is a pilot of course), it is heaps easier to get into an a/c with a centre stick than with two sticks. And as for taking for ever to get off the ground, come for a fly with me some time. That little turd of mine will lay you back in the seat, have you off the tarmac in way less than 100m and will out climb pretty much anything else. Cheers, Qwerty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Can anyone show us a better bang for the buck plane than a Jab? I don't fly Jabs or any of the plastic fantastics, but it seems from perusing the ads that it is far easier to get flying with a Jab than just about anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qwerty Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 .....and sometimes I'm amased at the knockers in my jab! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryon Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Oh dear oh dear, Qwertys at it again ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Alot of plane for the money.Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastmeg2 Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 I was sorely tempted to say something about the seating arrangement in a trike and an instructor who told me he once took a Miss Jennifer H:faint: for a fly, but I couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 What an interesting thread. Much more objective than the last two where we had Jab knockers dribbling assertions all over their feet. I like your approach Crezzi, and it would be interesting if we had someone on here who was good at statistical analysis to take it further. Many years ago I worked for International Harvester, and at a conference in Sydney an RTA officer came up to me and said "We'rte watching you people, you're truck are involved in more accidents than any others, so we're going to conduct spot checks on Inters from now on. Since this was presented to me with a good deal of venom, I took it seriously. We were number one in the market place at the time, so I half expected this was the reason, but I obtained the Car Park figures from ABS and found that out of the 300,000 registered trucks in Australia, we had an out of proportion lead. A bit more study indicated that the competitive trucks such as Bedford had a much shorter life and were going to the wreckers early. I then obtained the NSW accident statistics and found: (a) We had the most accidents in NSW (b) Our proportion of accidents to registered trucks was close to the lowest I then made the RTA guy an offer he couldn't refuse. After reading some of the threads on this forum, I think a lot of engine problems are self inflicted by incorrect maintenance, and owners could avoid this by treating the information from Jabiru with a bit more attention. One issue with the Jab which makes me very nervous is the repeated featuring in the RA Aus incident reports for head bolt failure, and I would have thought that an economic fiox could have been found by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Certainly is an interesting thread, not only for the mental image of Ms Jay Hawk on the back of a trike. Interesting analysis on engine hours Crezzi; I had been thinking along similar lines albeit less organised, but have also wondered what a typical rebuild costs on a 4cyl Jab? I have heard figures of $25,000 bandied around for replacement 912's, something which would deal my flying budget a fatal blow if it came up unexpectedly eg. soon after purchase, I understand a Jab is cheaper, but by how much? I know, I know how long is a piece of string, but it would be intersting to hear real figures from those who have been to the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derby Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 How long is a piece of string. Twice as long as from one end to the middle. My j400 has 324 hours on it now and it has never missed a beat, it's great it will cruise at 120 kts for about 21 to23 lts/h. Can't get much better than that, maintenance is easy and cheep what more can tou ask for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 The Ratio to Jab vs other LSA types is fairly significant.... that says a lot, full stop. I think a lot of engine problems are self inflicted by incorrect maintenance, and owners could avoid this by treating the information from Jabiru with a bit more attention. Yep, sadly this is the case 92% of the time... Problem is 80% of them don't realize they are doing it incorrectly, so in their opinion it is Ok. Rotax, just possibly may be a little more bullet proof than a Jab in the engine... but for what it takes, I'm happy behind both types with the proper care and maintenance carried out. You'll find a TBO in a Jab is not as bad you as you think. If nobody knows the price, I'll give Jab a ring on monday and get a ball park figure of a price for you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 For a 6cyl exchange motor (fully rebuilt) Zero timed I think ~ $10K, everything new thats out of spec, everything crack tested. Top end O haul, in Bundy $5500 inc parts (thats 1000hr schedule) Around 1/2 is parts JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 For a 6cyl exchange motor (fully rebuilt) Zero timed I think ~ $10K, everything new thats out of spec, everything crack tested.Top end O haul, in Bundy $5500 inc parts (thats 1000hr schedule) Around 1/2 is parts JR Thanks JR, You have to be pretty happy with that IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I enquired about the cost of a zero timed Jab 6 cylinder last week and it was $15500 or thereabouts. I paid $10000 for a 2.2 zero timed Jab a few years ago.. Both are good value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Buschor Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Just been to Bundy to look at the Jab Factory. I came away most impressed. The dedication of the people building this plane is nothing short of astounding. I have seen other planes like Technams, Sportstars & Sportcruisers etc. These cost a lot more money and the build appears no better and in some cases worse. I have nevr owned a Jabiru but my wife keeps telling me to buy a 230. So far I have not. All I can say is that the finish and the commitment of all he crew is wonderfull and the product is terriffic !! And I mean this at any cost ! not just because it is cheaper than .... It also appears that the engine problems are a thing of the past. Constant upgrades have seen to that. Should I ever sell my wonderful Savvy I would only ever by a 230 . Even if I could afford a dearer plane I would still go the 230. Well done Jabiru !! fly safe Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonflyer Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I dont hate Jabs although i don't like the look of them and i havent heard a lot positive about them except the price (except from the converts of course).. Having not flown one myself i will reserve judgment on the actual performance of the thing, but what i have heard about the way you have to fly them is that they reverse "normal" stick and rudder skills i.e you lead with the feet and follow with stick, and that they can be slippery due to the aspect ratio and lack of lateral stability... A very experienced instructor said that he could tell if someone had done a lot of flying in a jab..?? Can anyone verify or deny any of these things?:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 A very experienced instructor said that he could tell if someone had done a lot of flying in a jab..??Can anyone verify or deny any of these things?:confused: Maybe its because they know how to fly properly!! Interesting what you say about the rudder, I've never noticed having to put rudder in first. I use rudder to overcome the secondary effect of aileron, which is yaw, so you just use it enough to overcome that, using just the needed amount for that particular turn. Keeping a tad of top rudder on in a banked turn keeps things pretty well in balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentas Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Love my J230! Had it 2 years now and is the 1st choice for my travelling around the countryside. I have taken numerous people for a fly in it and several of those have ordered 230's as a result! Absolute best bang for buck. Thanks Rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Escadrille Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I have flown a variety of different aircraft, Drifter, CT4,Pitts S2B, C172, Piper Super Cub,Tomahawk, Warrior,Decathlon and owned Hang glidersThruster single seat and two seat,Corby Starlet. The relevance? Well I wanted to share a little of my background my to put my ensuing comments into some context. After selling my beloved Corby,I looked around for a long time to buy a two seat aircraft (even GA) and looked at all sorts of things even to importing and aircraft. I was never a fan of the Jabiru due to the abundance of rumour generated "Aussie negativity to an indigenous product". However after much research I have ended up buying a Jabiru SP 470. The little aircraft has good climb and cruise performance, it is easy to handle on the ground,in and out of the hangar, it is quiet inside and outside. Stable in the air,flies nicely but is challenging enough to fly well to make it fun.(After all,Nothing beats a tail dragger for fun,,). Flown properly it can get into and out of a 400 metre strip easily. The aircraft is fast in cruise,economical to run, maintain,insure, register and hangar and therefore own and fly a lot. It has excellent manufacturer support(I have found) It has faults yes ( visibility is a little restricted in turns,.. If you want a very capable aeroplane that mere mortals can afford to own and enjoy flying- buy a Jabiru. You won't regret it! :thumb_up: Any way the way Copenhagen is going and our Govts ETS no one will be able to afford to fly anymore! FWIW, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now