Rotax 582 vs Jabiru 2200 engine

[Guest fraser]

I am looking at 2 of the same model aircraft. I am interested in engine reliabilty over performance. One has a Jabiru 2200 engine 5 years old with approximately 500 hours. The other is a 582 Rotax 2 years old with approximately 100 hours.

 

Both are in the same price range and condition.

 

My concerns are:

 

Reported valve and head problems on the Jabiru engine once over 500 hours. I have read some other posts on this forum where people have had these issues.

 

Engine reliabilty of a 2 stroke engine. It is newer however.

 

I guess my question is would a 2 stroke Rotax 582 with only 100 hours be more reliable and trouble free than a Jabiru 2200 with 500 hours.

 

Just after some feedback as I am a bit confused. There is a certain faction that believe the 2 strokes are less reliable and another faction that have experienced problems with Jabiru Engines over a certain age/hours.

 

Would appreciate feedback on pros and cons of each engine.

 

 

[Ross]

Engines

 

I suspect you are unlikely to get an answer to your question about a Jabiru motor without quoting the full engine number, whether mechanical or hydraulic tappets, whether it has been factory overhauled and if so what replacements for wear have been done and what upgrades if any have been fitted.

 

Is service history of the engine available?

 

How did it do the first 500 hours??

 

A bloke I know actually admitted running his motor for a kit plane without a prop or cowls in his garage for a few minutes!!

 

I would not comment, but those are some of the questions I would need to know to get an opinion from more experienced people than I am.

 

Regards

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I'd take the 582 anyday with it's track record of reliability and thousands (millions?) of hours in-sevice reliability throughout the world. The early grey-top was good and the later bluetops are even better. I've had the pleasure of running in two new one's recently, they just sing and put out. One of Rotaxs best......................................................................Maj..

 

 

[Guest fraser]

Thanks for the info on the 582.Any idea what kind of hours the life of a 582 can have if looked after properly.

 

 

[facthunter]

choose engines.?.

 

The question you pose is too broad to answer straight out. There are too many variables, and you are looking at reliability, essentially.

 

How you personally operate both engines will determine how you fare and their previous history and build date count, (in the case of the Jab. there are many changes possible). there are other factors, eg. (The Rotax is geared, This suits a draggy aeroplane as you can run a bigger prop. It also has a good power to weight ratio, but has a bulky exhaust and needs radiators out in the airstream, usually. It's a 2-stroke (but that is not a death sentence).

 

The Jabiru is hard to cool as a pusher installation. It can be made reasonably reliable if you know the motor, and it has potentially a higher TBO, though some valve work is generally required in between. Parts are cheap, and the motor is simple in principle being direct drive and air cooled. It is easier to cowl & has a neat exhaust.

 

Your post addresses life of the 582, They seem to be good up to 4-500 hours Which is the factory life, but many run to a much higher figure. I don't believe in doing a top rebuild as the parts are dear and the bearing and shaft life (being rollers) are hard to predict. If a good second hand price was available, (non aero) the best thing would be a NEW engine. EVERYTHING is new. and start all over again, and maintain a good reliability prospect. Watch you mixtures and they go fine....Your call.... Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I did 650 hrs in a Greytop 582 without it missing a beat. felt the power had dropped a bit at 500 hrs, so a decoke and a new set of rings and a light cylinder hone, and away it went for more. Still running in the Drifter last time I checked.......................................Maj..

 

 

[Guest Baphomet]

Anecdotal evidence for what its worth:

 

Two 582 Drifters in the local area, both lasted 750 and 760 hrs respectively before self destructing.

 

I recently had mine checked by an authorised Rotax mechanic at 560 hrs, carby parts replaced, bearing test showed it was still in good condition, and should be good for another couple of hundred hrs.

 

How they are flown makes a big difference, training school=short life

 

You pay your money and take your chances. If in doubt, buy a 912 :-)

 

Baphomet

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I go with 582 that what ran for 11 years with no problems in my old lightwing . With a good maintains pratices .

 

just bought a blue top oil injection engine to go new lightwing Witch should be air borne this month if I can get the rego sorted .,!

 

 

[seb7701]

Go the 582 any day of the week. If the engine is privately owned (as opposed to a club craft) and probably warmed up/down etc, they seem to go for a heck of a long time and despite the 2 stroke aspect, don't seem to have had cause to be scrutinised to the extent that Jab motors have. I reckon that speaks volumes!

 

 

[John M]

I am looking at 2 of the same model aircraft. I am interested in engine reliabilty over performance. One has a Jabiru 2200 engine 5 years old with approximately 500 hours. The other is a 582 Rotax 2 years old with approximately 100 hours.Both are in the same price range and condition.

My concerns are:

 

Reported valve and head problems on the Jabiru engine once over 500 hours. I have read some other posts on this forum where people have had these issues.

 

Engine reliabilty of a 2 stroke engine. It is newer however.

 

I guess my question is would a 2 stroke Rotax 582 with only 100 hours be more reliable and trouble free than a Jabiru 2200 with 500 hours.

 

Just after some feedback as I am a bit confused. There is a certain faction that believe the 2 strokes are less reliable and another faction that have experienced problems with Jabiru Engines over a certain age/hours.

 

Would appreciate feedback on pros and cons of each engine.

I have flown with both in my Avid Flyer B STOL. I had 2400 hours with the 582 and now have 808 hours with my 2nd Jab 2200. The 1st Jab was an abomination. It was the early hyd lifter change over and had worn valves at 200 hours and it sucked an exhaust valve at 587 hours causing major engine damege. The person who repairs them on the west coast did not do a great job and the engine threw a rod 30 seconds after I started it up. He made me a deal I couldn't refuse on a new, updated engine with all the earlier problems corrected. That engine has served well for 808 hours. I have pulled the heads and looked at all the valves and guides and they are doing quite well leading me to believe I will easily make it to the 1,000 TBO for top.

 

The 582 is a good engine if maintained well. Keep in mind that the engine compartment gets very crowded when you add an engine that requires water cooling and a gear box. The Jabiru is a clean, uncrowded set up.

 

The 582 set up I removed and the Jabiru 2200 I installed both weighed the same.

 

Of course the Jabiru sounds like an aircraft engine and not a leaf blower if that is important to you.

 

The 2200 is a LOT more economical to own and run. The fuel consumption and cost of parts on Rotax engines are more than Jabiru engines.

 

I swung a 70" WARP Drive prop on the 582 and a 64" on the Jabiru. Both engine climbed about the same on the Avid.

 

I have a total of 4,030 hours on the Avid and have gone through 5 engines. 1) 532, 2) 582's and 2) Jabiru's.

 

Hope this helps in your decision.

 

John M

 

 

[sandman]

Wonder what people would choose right now, the situation jabiru are in.

 

 

[facthunter]

While this is an old post, you would have a better chance of building a better Jabiru now,than back then. A slow aeroplane can benefit from an engine with a reduction drive though. There are less two strokes about than back then,now so not as many folks around who know how to operate them. It's not that difficult but you should know what you are doing. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

choose engines.?.The question you pose is too broad to answer straight out. There are too many variables, and you are looking at reliability, essentially.

 

How you personally operate both engines will determine how you fare and their previous history and build date count, (in the case of the Jab. there are many changes possible). there are other factors, eg. (The Rotax is geared, This suits a draggy aeroplane as you can run a bigger prop. It also has a good power to weight ratio, but has a bulky exhaust and needs radiators out in the airstream, usually. It's a 2-stroke (but that is not a death sentence).

 

The Jabiru is hard to cool as a pusher installation. It can be made reasonably reliable if you know the motor, and it has potentially a higher TBO, though some valve work is generally required in between. Parts are cheap, and the motor is simple in principle being direct drive and air cooled. It is easier to cowl & has a neat exhaust.

 

Your post addresses life of the 582, They seem to be good up to 4-500 hours Which is the factory life, but many run to a much higher figure. I don't believe in doing a top rebuild as the parts are dear and the bearing and shaft life (being rollers) are hard to predict. If a good second hand price was available, (non aero) the best thing would be a NEW engine. EVERYTHING is new. and start all over again, and maintain a good reliability prospect. Watch you mixtures and they go fine....Your call.... Nev

The fuel consumption, I dare say, would be pretty stiff in the Rotax compared to the Jabiru.

 

 

[facthunter]

I haven't actually found that. but I haven't done big cross countries. On circuit work they aren't too bad.. Mixing fuel drives you mad. I know the later motors have oil pumps, but I prefer to mix. Much higher airspeed makes the Jab more economical in a distance situation, but that's airframe. Nev

 

 

[pylon500]

Remember that the original prototype Jabiru flew with a Rotax two stroke......

 

 

[ave8rr]

Remember that the original prototype Jabiru flew with a Rotax two stroke......

I thought the original Jab had a KFM but Jab had to come up with a new motor when KFM pulled the plug.

 

 

[facthunter]

That's when they made the 1600 cc motor. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

They still might have used a Rotax 2 stroke earlier on for testing, but I don't know of it. (That doesn't mean much.) Nev

 

 

[sandman]

I have just completed a cross country in my 582 drifter 9 hours in total and she didn't miss a beat, yeah she might use a little bit more fuel than jab but I personally felt safe. When I fly I usually track direct, some people get scared of flying over heavy timber country but I use altitude for a bit better glide if necessary. An experienced 582 operator on the Darling Downs told me you will never break these motors they just wear out (this of course includes our maintenance schedules hey people). I was looking at buying a jab so I can go faster and piss with the big boys but my wife said why would you bother when you have a perfectly good airplane and flies well. At the end of the day my 582 hasn't let me down and I do regular maintenance to it, people say 2 strokes aren't as reliable as 4 strokes but in my opinion I would disagree, I've heard operators say the compare good 2 strokes with a turbine engine, they just keep running.

 

 

[facthunter]

Nice sentiment Sandman but not true, unfortunately. The types of failures are usually rapid in onset and a total sudden loss of power. I'm not anti two stroke per se but the facts are there. Having the absolute correct mixture is a lot of the challenge. The amount of oil in a 2 stroke is very marginal at any time also. Carbon in the ring grooves is a no no, and the big ends are roller bearings that may fail due cage breakage , overheating thrust washers due bad rod alignment or just the hard surface failing on the crankpins due surface fatigue. The last mode of failure is not picked up by the usual measurement of play some rely on (until it is too late). Glad you are using it and having fun.. I would be inclined to dodge a few trees though and keep up you engine fail practice. Just in case. Nev

 

 

[sandman]

Hey Facthunter, It's just my experience with these motors and what I have been told, I guess everyone has there opinions and she's runnin like a well oiled machine. I knew a bloke who had a thruster and he use to fly IFR ( I Follow Roads ) because he didn't like the uncertainty that the 2 stroke may fail, I told him you may as well stay in bed, there is always a certain amount of risk we take and be comfortable with it and yes always a concern with any engine failing and always looking for landing areas and I always practice engine failures because I was always told it's not a matter if it fails it's when it fails and that's anything mechanical.

 

 

[Downunder]

Hey Sandman, are you using Activ 2t? Everyone I know with a 582 is using this. They say "Good on the rings but hard on the plugs".

 

A trike pilot I know has 1000's of hours on this....

 

As a 912 owner I would probably go with a 582 over a Jab engine but not over a Camit.....

 

 

[John M]

I am looking at 2 of the same model aircraft. I am interested in engine reliabilty over performance. One has a Jabiru 2200 engine 5 years old with approximately 500 hours. The other is a 582 Rotax 2 years old with approximately 100 hours.Both are in the same price range and condition.

My concerns are:

 

Reported valve and head problems on the Jabiru engine once over 500 hours. I have read some other posts on this forum where people have had these issues.

 

Engine reliabilty of a 2 stroke engine. It is newer however.

 

I guess my question is would a 2 stroke Rotax 582 with only 100 hours be more reliable and trouble free than a Jabiru 2200 with 500 hours.

 

Just after some feedback as I am a bit confused. There is a certain faction that believe the 2 strokes are less reliable and another faction that have experienced problems with Jabiru Engines over a certain age/hours.

 

Would appreciate feedback on pros and cons of each engine.

Fraser:

 

I fly Avid Flyer Aircraft and flew my model B for 2400 hours with a grey head 582 and then changed to Jabirus for another 1980 hours.

 

First a summary then the pros and cons.

 

I bought my Avid in 1990 and have had 5 different engines in it since that time. It came with a Rotax 532 with single ignition and rope start. I got rid of that one quickly and installed a used Rotax 582. Flew it for several hours and had it overhauled a couple times. It had a C box and no starter. I hand proped it.

 

Then I pulled that one and installed a new 582 with an Ebox with built in starter. I ran 100% synthetic oil which I mixed by hand in the fuel. I ran it 100:1 ratio and got 500-600 hours between overhauls. I believe this is due to the fact that I fly a lot of hours and because of the synthetic oil. The 2 strokes only had minor issues.

 

The pros in the 582: They are one of the cheapest power plants. You can swing a longer prop due to the gear box.

 

The cons of the 582: All Rotax parts are very expensive. They start out light and simple in concept, but after you install the heavy muffler, two carbs which have to be syncronized, short TBO times (recommended at 300 hours) and oil container for the injection oil. water with anti freeze, rotary valve oil supply, water hoses and radiators you now have a much heavier and more complex engine. Oh...and the chain saw sound.

 

How about the Jabiru 2200s:

 

These are very simple engines with one constant depression carb (somewhat altitude compensating) and light weight. Almost the same as the fully equiped 582 at about 130-135 pounds. The 1st one I had was one of the early hyd lifter conversions.

 

At 200 hours all the valve guides were worn and replaced on warranty. At that time the valves should have also been replaced, but weren't so at 585 hours it sucked an exhaust valve and I dead sticked back to the airport with no damage. The #3 piston was busted, the rod was bent so I took to my dealer in Fresno (no longer in business) and he rebuilt the engine . After I got it back it ran for about a minute and threw a rod.

 

He was embarrased to say the least and I was pissed. He placated me by selling me a much newer engine (at half price) with all the rocker box and valve issues addressed. It also had different hyd lifters, cam and heads.

 

I have put 1030 hours on this last engine. At 980 hours I saw some evidence of valve guide leakage on the rear exhaust valves. I was getting ready for a back country trip so I relined the exhaust valve guides and replaced the exhaust valves.

 

On the trip to the Nevada back country I made a bad landing and totaled my plane. One week later I bought a newer Avid with a Rotax 582 grey head with 280 hours on the last overhaul. I flew it for a short wihile listening to the engine turning 6000 RPM with the 3 blade prop only turning 2000 RPM and burning 7 GPH.

 

I sold the engine, prop, spinner and motor mount and have installed my Jabiru 2200 from the wreck. The leak down performed on a cold engine after not being run for over a month came in at 75/80 for the lowest.

 

Took the new Avid on a maiden flight today and glad to have the quiet simplicity of a direct drive 4 stroke.

 

Jabiru Pros: Simple, light weight, parts are cheaper..many off-the-shelf, much quieter, under 3 GPH fuel burn with mixture control, easier installation, longer TBOs (1000 hours top...2000hours bottom)

 

Jabiru Cons: Some engines are not being installed properly and are over heating and failing sooner than needed. Some range of serial numbers of the early hydraulic lifter engines had early failures. Only one reputable dealer in the US. Currently a airworthy notice pending in Austrailia which was poorly drafted and is being contested.

 

Hope this helps with the decision.

 

John M

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Go with auto lube and you have no problems they work great these days I fly with one now and no way I go back too mixing ,

 

 

[Downunder]

Thanks John, very informative.