octave

Like some others here I am lucky enough to be in a position where I do not (so far) have to expose myself to the risk of infection.   I do of course rely on people who are putting themselves at risk in order to deliver my shopping etc.  Some of the reasons I got vaccinated are because although I am pretty safe at the moment I would like lo to start getting at and about more.   I have an aging mother interstate who was recently widowed.  At her age having we  could have to do a dash interstate for compassionate reasons at any time.  Although I am in a low risk situation now circumstances may change.

Early next year I will be requiring a medical procedure that will require a hospital stay.  It is totally rational to do everything I can in order to protect myself (and others).  I am of course hoping by then that the hospital will not be full of covid patients.

4 minutes ago, jackc said:

In 5 years time we will only really know the volatility of spreading it, we will have statistics of vaccination success, long term side effects,  susceptibility of vaccinated people spreading it etc.

Only time will tell.

I understand that you have your personal situation and that is fine but what should the government do in your view? 

Just now, jackc said:

Still becoming infected and spreading it everywhere…..the vaccine stops the person having vaccine, from getting  so sick…

Yes you can still get it although the chances are reduced and you can still pass it on but the chances are reduced but the main point is you are much less likely to become seriously ill. For the vaccinated it will become a minor illness,   Early on in the pandemic many people said we should only lockdown the vulnerable.  Now it is the unvaccinated who are the vulnerable.   If people don't want to get vaccinated that is fine by me as long as they responsibility should they get it and pass it on.   

9 minutes ago, jackc said:

Big worry is, will we see any new severe strains the vaccine will not cover?

We can only wait and see on that one……

This is possible as with any vaccine.  It is also a risk that more people with active infection the higher the chance of variants.    These problems are considered and weighed up.  Here is a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine,  I have not yet had time to read it so I don't know what it says but I do consider this publication to be high quality.   SARS-CoV-2 Variants and Vaccines

I suppose the question is that we only have so many options, we can vaccinate, we can lockdown or use other social distancing methods or we can let it rip.

3 minutes ago, KRviator said:

Asbestos and Thalidomide were both thought to be the ducks nuts early in the piece too...Just sayin...🤨

Ok but many drugs we are prescribed have not necessarily been around for many years.  We take new antibiotics, blood pressure dugs statins etc.    The thing we do know is that for some people the long term affects of covid are  bad.  Some people have even required lung transplants. It does not seem like we are ever going to eliminate covid so the likelihood is that eventually most of us will get it. The question is how badly will we be affected by it?

We are now up to 5.18 Billion doses administered worldwide I am not sure at what stage some people will consider it to be safe.       I am happy for people to decide not to have the vaccine as long as they are willing to be responsible for the consequences. 

   Delta Air Lines is raising health insurance premiums for unvaccinated employees by $200 a month to cover higher Covid costs     This seems fair enough to me. (of course taking into account availability and the people who genuinely should cant be vaccinated) 

If people genuinely mistrust the health system or believe that covid is not serious then perhaps they should not turn up at hospital if they do get a serious case.  

19 minutes ago, jackc said:

Now they want to allow kids to be vaccinated with NO clinical trials to prove it’s safe, experiment on them is the Govt answer.

CLINICAL TRIALS IN CHILDREN

7 minutes ago, jackc said:

you can still catch the virus and be a carrier to spread it.  So lockdowns could still continue.

IF vaccination was so good, the Govt would allow those that can prove full vaccination would be able  to cross borders?

It seems like you answered your own question.   Why would WA be keen to allow vaccinated people from states with high covid numbers who are still able to spread the virus to a population that does not yet have an adequate vaccination coverage.   The way out of this will be  when enough people are vaccinated that the virus will still be spreading but should take the pressure of medical systems.   We will then not be focusing on infection numbers but hospitalization, ICU and death numbers.

1 minute ago, Flightrite said:

I put a lot of blame of restlessness and a non desire to learn due to discipline, or lack of it! We have become a weak nation where we pander to the weak, the youth of today have little respect & know they can't be touched! Discipline at home & at school back when was administered liberally! Dad used to belt the crap out of us boys as did the head master, never did us any hard & taught respect! I feel sorry for teachers, they are in a war with no weapons!

I managed to raise a healthy successful child into adulthood without physically assaulting him.

6 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

 

To be fair, you ask any kid what they learned in school on any day and 90% of the time the answer is "Nuthin'".

 

Doesn't mean they actually didn't learn anything, just means that they either don't want to talk to you or they don't realise they learned stuff.

 

I can relate to this, my father would always ask me this question and it would drive me mad.   I think in his mind education was more about learning and memorizing a series of facts.   He wanted to hear the new facts I had learnt that day whereas the reality was that the school day was filled with doing repetitive simultaneous equations, not new knowledge every lesson but rather practicing a skill.  

I think it is important to factor in that we tend to have a bias towards believing the we were the last good generation.     

I also believe that the biggest determiner of how well a child will do is not necessarily the school but the home.    I have been a private music teacher for most of my working life.   i would teach students at my studio that would come many surrounding schools.    I can tell you that whenever I got a new student I could tell nothing about how dedicated they would be which school they went to, I did not seem to matter whether it was the local public school or the exclusive private school.   What did make a difference was the parents.  Sometimes I would not get to meet the parents until a few lessons in. How well the child was doing would be a good indicator of what the parents were like.     The formula that seemed to work was "involved but not overbearing"    

The kids I taught seemed to be bright and well educated and many have gone on to great careers in many areas. 

My wife and I did not send our son to school but opted for home education.   In our case this was amazingly successful.    We did not follow a strict curriculum or formally teach him anything,  we just facilitated his natural curiosity,   

1 minute ago, turboplanner said:

It could be as simple as someone put a coffee shop on site without a permit, someone else in Lethbridge saw it as competition, went to Council and Council C&E officers checked it out and closed it down.

I suspect this may be the case.

9 hours ago, planesmaker said:

Kids dying at the Qudos Bank Arena? Not a mention of it in the news, why????

Because it is not happening.  Children are not even being mass vaccinated yet. I think approval has only just been given for vaccination down to 16 years old and this is not yet being done due to supply..  I have seen this allegation and it  is tin foil hat conspiracy stuff which talks about vaccination centres as "euthanasia centres. I also believes it is part of the "new world order"

19 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

Just finished watching a broadcast on a site called "rumble" with Steve Peters doing an interview with Alan Hennessy . Can't add the link as I am unable to but search for it am sure you will find it. Warning though as it's going to upset the indoctrinated prolific posters here!:-)

Why cant you add the link?   You could at least type the address or give more information so we can search ?  Is it this video  KIDS DEAD AFTER JAB IN AUSTRALIA?

19 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said:

Doherty also suggested all the teens and twenty’s in Australia should go to the Gold Coast for a week-end party and get the China virus..😏

 

I think you have misunderstood.

4 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said:

...2017-2018 influenza epidemic is sending people to hospitals and urgent-care centers in every state, and medical centers are responding with extraordinary measures: asking staff to work overtime, setting up triage tents, restricting friends and family visits and canceling elective surgeries, to name a few...”

 

It is to be hoped that come winter there is not a flu epidemic in addition to the covid cases.   

FB why don't you lay out for us what you think our response should be, should we just let it rip and see what happens?     

 I think I said this - "I would be resentful of anyone that could have been vaxxed taking up valuable medical resources."     to clarify "tie up" I do not mean getting a hospital bed.  I am talking of the situations such as in Florida where IC units are at over capacity.    I am not talking about people who for medical reasons can not get vaccinated nor those to who have not had the opportunity. For that matter I don't necessarily resent people who make the choice. The only people I would resent are those who are waging an antivaxx campaign who seek to deter others.   I believe that people should have the right to refuse the vaccination but rights usually go along with responsibilities.  I saw a video from the US where a man was having a distraught rant about his wife who was struggling with breast cancer, she needed some fluid drained in hospital but was sent home because the hospital was over capacity with covid patients mostly unvaccinated.   He was understandably annoyed.    

This was the situation as of August 1.     It seems that at least at this stage if we had a high vaccination rate we wouldn't be filling up ICUs.  This of could change as the virus mutates

Kidd said of the more than 2,700 locally acquired cases of Covid-19 in NSW between 16 June and 28 July, 93% of those people had not yet been vaccinated, and 6% had been vaccinated with only one of the two doses.

“No fully vaccinated people have been admitted to intensive care units,” Kidd said. “No people who are fully vaccinated have died from Covid-19 during this current outbreak. Four percent of people admitted to ICU with Covid-19 have received one dose of a vaccine; 96% of those admitted to ICU are currently unvaccinated.

I agree that vaccinations are not the only hope. we need to use all the measures we have.   Whilst a  mask does not provide 100% protection, combined with other measure such as   hand washing, social distancing and vaccination, the level of protection is multiplied.

I don't think anyone believes we can totally eliminate the virus, we will have to learn to live with it. We have never managed to eliminate HIV/AIDS however these days it is not a death sentence it used to be (in the developed word).

1 minute ago, Markdun said:

Do you have the same moral indignation towards people injured in small recreational plane crashes taking up scarce hospital resources, or football players, kids injured at pony club, people who smoke cigarettes or women getting pregnant (or the men that ‘seeded’ the pregnancy), all of whom have made choices that impose public health costs and take up scarce hospital resources?

In actual fact I believe we should care for all even people who contribute to their own condition.   Your example of pilots taking up scarce resources I think the difference is this, will there ever be a time when ICU is full to capacity with injured pilots.  I don't think this is comparable.    

6 minutes ago, Markdun said:

 I, like FB, was cautious (hesitant) about the Covid vaccine, and would have much preferred to wait and see how things developed,

Yep so was I, I am definitely not arguing against weighing the evidence.   I accept that some will not get it and that is there right although I don't quite understand the undermining efforts of some.    The none vaccinated surely should be supportive of all those who do get vaccinated since it affords them some protection.   

One of the problems we face is that of mutations.   We have already observed that Delta is a much bigger problem.   The more active cases we have the more likely it is that we will see more mutations which could be better or worse. 

16 minutes ago, Markdun said:

In my view it’s a bit rich to damn someone for having a different assessment of the balance of risks.
 

I don't think criticized anyone for deciding against having the vax.  Unless I have slipped up in one of my posts I have only criticized factual statements in fact.     My problem isn't those who decide to make the personal decision not to get vaccinated.   My problem with here is those who go beyond their personal decision and  actively try to undermine with misinformation,

23 minutes ago, Markdun said:

Australia being an isolated island had the opportunity to have effective quarantine....an opportunity not available to many nations.

Sure we can stay isolated for the future and rely on lockdowns but at what cost?

26 minutes ago, Markdun said:

I also think FB is correct about the mass pro-vaccine hysteria.  It’s as unhinged and irrational as many of the irrational and unhinged anti-vaxxers.

I don't see myself as being irrational or unhinged.    

2 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said:

Most, not all, of the people I know who have had the vaccine didn’t seem to care if I had the vaccine or not. The ones who wanted me to have the vaccine seemed to be caught up in the ‘all must be vaccinated’ hysteria and came across as the piss in pants type. I guess the way to justify their terror is to ensure all get the vaccine..😏

 

I have no interest in whether you get vaccinated or not.    I would however (at the point that everyone has access to the vax)    be resentful of anyone that could have been vaxxed taking up valuable medical resources.    We certainly don't want this situation here Florida ICU at 200 Percent Capacity as COVID Hospitalizations Spiral Out of Control

A question for you FB.   At what point would you consider these vaccines to be safe?  Do you consider the flu vax tp be safe?

Just now, Flying Binghi said:

Seems AstraZeneca also has a bridge fer sale in Sydney harbour..😏

 

“...AstraZeneca’s chief executive, Pascal Soriot, said last month that “at some point in the future” the company would raise its prices, adding: “We cannot be a non-profit forever, but we will never intend to make large profits.”...”

 

”we will never intend to make large profits” Gawd, I love it...😂

 

Buy now and pay later...

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/11/covid-19-vaccines-the-contracts-prices-and-profits

 

😂😂😂

 

 

 

 

.

Why would you expect a private company to forgo profit forever?  It is not a case of pay later it is a case of when the emergency is over the vaccine will be offered on the basis of a private company offering a product.

12 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said:

if only they were in the business of selling vaccines.

Seems fair to me.

AstraZeneca is one of the shining stars of the pandemic. Not only did it produce a vaccine where other big players failed, the UK-Swedish company has pledged to sell it at cost until it is able to declare the pandemic over.

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Is that your "Yes" there Octave?

Is there any public information available to say that the unspecified manufacturers of the unspecified vaccines have a unique legal indemnity?

 

The Federeal Government indemnified health professionals vaccinating AZ subject to the patient receiving medical advice.

it should be noted that this also applies the the influenza vaccination

Government indemnities

In the 2020-21 Budget Papers, the Australian Government announced that it has provided an indemnity to Oxford University/AstraZeneca, ‘covering certain liabilities that could result from the use of the vaccine’^[3]. However, it is unclear what this indemnity deal means in practice. The Government has provided similar deals to certain pharmaceutical companies that manufacture small pox and influenza vaccines for Australia^[4].

Unlike countries such as the US and UK, Australia does not have a no-fault vaccine compensation scheme or specific COVID-19 vaccine compensation scheme for rare side effects. Further, Australia’s National Disability Insurance Scheme does not compensate individuals for temporary vaccine-related injuries. However, the Australian Government may choose to introduce a no-fault compensation scheme as its COVID-19 vaccine rollout plan progresses.

Under the current arrangements there is no restriction on liability in Australia other than currently exists under civil liability legislation, for example, in terms of severity of loss as a threshold for general damages, caps on general damages and caps on economic loss. The Australian Government has provided an indemnity to the vaccine companies, likely in limited circumstances.

https://hallandwilcox.com.au/thinking/health-community-law-alert-liability-issues-with-covid-19-and-covid-19-vaccines-who-should-be-responsible-for-adverse-events/

3 minutes ago, Markdun said:

some of the vaccines are ‘novel’, eg. mRNA ones.

"Human trials of cancer vaccines using the same mRNA technology have been taking place since at least 2011. ‘If there was a real problem with the technology, we’d have seen it before now for sure,’ said Prof. Goldman."

Five things you need to know about: mRNA vaccine safety

4.84 Billion Covid vaccines administered.

I guess the individual has to rationally weigh up the odds.   I consider myself to been in a higher risk category  for a bad covid outcome.   I therefore have to consider the odds of contracting covid and the odds of a bad outcome.  Perhaps a couple of months ago I could have considered the fact that  covid numbers were low and the occasional short lockdown took care of the occasional breakout.     We now have a situation where in NSW they are admitting that they cant eradicate it and that we will just have to learn to live with it.   If this happens over the years inevitably most people will eventually get infected.   The question then is the risk of vaccine that has been administered pose a greater risk than the disease.   

Drug trials usually have  4 test phases which are done sequentially.  In this case they were all completed but in parallel.  The mRNA vax is not new has has been IN development for many years.  To date 4.84 Billion people have been vaccinated, that is a pretty big test.     Having said that if some p[people are afraid and anxious they are not compelled to have it.    

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines-myth-versus-fact

4 minutes ago, Flying Binghi said:

A question I have asked before. Do the vaccine manufacturers still have legal indemnity ?

 

🤔

 

 

 

 

.

 

Yes.   

  FB you do tend to post claims and when they are refuted you change tack.    You made a post casting doubt on the efficacy of the vaccine using Gibraltar as an example.    I would suggest that your example does not hold water.  The data is freely available.