octave

Some the states where cases were heard and dismissed we have:

Arizona

Georgia

Nevada

New Mexico

Texas

Wisconsin

Are you saying that these states have Democrat appointed or Dem leaning  courts?  Most of these states are quite conservative.   Next you will be telling me that "if you can get the bleach inside or if there were some way we could get light inside the body we could fix covid"

16 minutes ago, kasper said:

Sorry Octave.  We stopped being an incorporated association 5 years ago. Company limited by guarantee and a non-profit is what we are. 
 

directors are currently not remunerated but are directors of the company. 

OK I thought we were this but I must admit I am not on top of it. 

Registering as a company

Charitable and not-for-profit organisations can be registered as public companies limited by guarantee. This means the liability of the company’s members is limited. The limit is usually the amount members will contribute to the property of the company if it is wound up.

Registration of a company creates a legal entity separate from its members. This means the company can hold property and sue or be sued.

https://asic.gov.au/for-business/registering-a-company/steps-to-register-a-company/registering-not-for-profit-or-charitable-organisations/#registeringassociation

9 minutes ago, onetrack said:

He's happy with 30 mph cruise speed? He might as well ride a pushbike. As Nev points out, he did little to ensure a slippery shape, that might've given him a decent cruise speed.

He does state near the end of the clip that after seeing how it flies he would work on improving aerodynamics by fitting aerodynamic struts and sealing gaps.

This would not be my cup of tea but there are many who just love low and slow.

I am definitely not saying that EVs are cheap especially in this country.  If they were cheaper I would definitely buy one.   I think at the top end they are competitive.    As an example my son (lives in NZ)  is fairly well well off and could also be described as a petrol head, owning a few interesting cars and competes in motor sport.   His daily drive was a 5 series BMW which had got to the age where the transmission was going to require vast amounts of money.   To buy this car new was about the same cost as a Tesla 3P but the Tesla performs better and is cheaper to run (about $12 a week in electricity -off peak at home)   

I think at the cheaper end of the market it is not yet there on a purely economical basis. Cost is not the only factor when we buy a car.  Some people opt to buy a large 4wd for their daily city driving. They could buy a basic cheap car but they choose the car that they want to drive.   Some people love  the technology and are willing to pay more for it.    

The price and range of EVs improves each year and at some point will definitely be the cheaper option.  If you look at the plans of the major car companies the future is clear.   

And on the main topic 

Homemade Electric Airplane MK4

3 minutes ago, Cosmick said:

Hyundai Kona, ICE starts at $29000, EV starts at $67000

plus running costs, petrol Vs electricity

Just now, turboplanner said:

What do you think you are paying now?

I have absolutely no problem with EV drivers paying and equivalent amount what ever that is.   Bit of a non issue. Just pointing out that even if it is not yet enough it surely still would be considered significant if not equal.    I am most definitely not arguing for a free kick for EV owners in terms of tax.  

I have downsized so my roof space is limited.   My system works very well because my panels are spit between east, north and west giving a good output from sunrise to sunset.

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

Roads are paid for in Part by users

To be clear I have no problem with every user paying for road infrastructure.  I think $375 a year would be a significant contribution.

45 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

There's plenty of disussion on the Victorian tax, but it's not significant and is a payment for distance travelled nominally to support road infrastructure and maintenance. I

Not an insubstantial amount

"If the proposal is approved, owners of electric cars registered in the state of Victoria would pay 2.5 cents per kilometre – or about $375 per year based on the national annual average distance travelled of 15,000km"

55 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The upfront cost of EVs is 2.32 to 2.6 times the prices that people can afford.

I am not sure exactly what this means because it does not define "what people can afford"   None the less this is somewhat relevant.  A more interesting figure would be to compare the like for like new price.  I don't believe EVs are generally  2 to 2.5 x more than a petrol equivalent.    

58 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

It's disgraceful that the networks are paying peanuts for power supplied by homeowners, but that's what can happen when you have private companies selling power.

As someone who imports a large amount from my solar to the grid I would of course like the highest price,    A fair price needs to include the price of getting my solar to the grid  (poles and wires etc.)    I also have to accept that sometimes the grid does not want or need all of my power therefore some of my input is curtailed. I produce more power than I need and a battery is looking more and more economically viable especially as the prices fall My system produces an excess of around 1.5 MWh a year over what I use.    There are also new programs whereby you can allow the network extremely limited access to draw small amounts of power to help with peak times. (you get paid for this.)  Community batteries are another interesting area.

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

on a hot day with air conditoning going all over the country,

My solar powers this comfortably.   

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

if you were to increase their output 99 times to get to 100% Peak Power, the Infrastructure cost would send us all broke

I would agree with you here if we did it overnight but as experience throughout the world shows we can move towards better ways of generating  and distributing energy.    My KWh price from my power company recently dropped by 3 cents a kilowatt at a time when renewables are increasing.

I do look at the AEMO Mix summary chart regularly. Right now in Victoria wind and solar account for 37% and hydro 3%, Brown coal  is 60%  And Tasmania is 100% renewables at the moment.  Of course they do have geographical advantages.

Back to planes

Be interesting to see how this company goes in the future

Australia's first electric plane company set to fly in SA

Not just expensive electrical motors.   A Rotax 912 costs a small fortune when compared to car engines.

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Octave, the pricing came from this link: https://www.pipistrel-prices.com/configurator/configure/420/

 

As anyone can see, the base price is 125,000 Euros, a 3kW (10 hours) charger is 4,400 Euros, Dealer Delivery is 3,800 Euros, making the total price $133,200 Euros which at 5:29 pm  exchange rate is $207,506.95

I am not arguing that they are cheap I am saying that the technology exists and works. In your post you suggested that :

"That power is being distributed through four motors in a car, so the first issue is to find a motor which for a Rag and Tube would need to produce about 80 hp(60kW) from the one engine.

Instead of a four branch electrical circuit you would have one, but its cables would need to be heavier."

Most EVs do not have 4 motors, perhaps. am misunderstanding what you mean here? 

   My point is that suitable motors do exist  for example the  EA-811 https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/electric-flight/e-811/  Sure at this point is it probably pricey and I have no idea how it compares price wise to a 912.  These motors and aircraft are flying now. 

  The price and range will continue to improve.  Perhaps local manufacturing will help with progress  https://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/electric-pipistrels-to-be-built-in-adelaide

I am all for innovation.

16 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Priced this up based on US dealer pricing - $207,329.00 Australian Dollars

69000 Euros

4 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Priced this up based on US dealer pricing - $207,329.00 Australian Dollars

I am  not saying it is cheap but that it is possible. I am not sure of the actual price but I will have a look. New technology is usually expensive at first and if adopted the price falls.  I am not sure how many of these aircraft have been sold.  The economics may make sense to a flying school.  Most of us here may not be able to afford this but that applies to many new technologies.  

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

That is a nice aircraft and no doubt costly.......people have choices.

Me? I am a low budget person, because I am old and EOL is not far away and I have always gotten fun from the more simpler things in life when it comes to man toys!

I can certainly understand that.  It is always great to see simpler cheaper flying but also exciting to see clever innovation.

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Good examples.

Each form of vehicle down the ages has had to produce two things; performance which meets the requirement of the people who buy it, and a cost those people can afford.

Horse drawn vehicles met the requirement for thousands of years when were were a village society, and if necessary you could breed or eat the power unit.

Steam, heated by wood, coal or other combustable material succeeded in the 18th and 19th century, and in fact was responsible for the development of many regional cities and towns, but it had an incredible number of controls that constantly needed to be managed, was not suited to mass production, and while it could be scaled down to carry five people on pneumatic tyres, the operation, maintenance cost, and constant hunting for fuel and water on trips kept it out of road use.

The ICE vehicle exploded into use because it was cheap, you could switch it on, start the engine and go, it was faster than horses, and you could refuel and go in a few minutes, so effectively had unlimited range as long as there was infrastructure on the route.

Eelectric vehicles were tried early in the 1800s and faded out, then again early in the 1900s expanding rapidly into buses, trams and trucks where thousands of electric milk and bread vans delivered the milk every morning and charged up the rest of the day, then they faded out based on cost and range.

Then we saw minor variants.

LP gas was a few cents a litre so people started selling conversions and manufacturers started supplying LP models down line. The infrastructure never got close to petrol for refuelling, the government applied excise tax to cover road use at the same rate as for petrol, the price of gas went up, and it was killed off by the Australian Design Rule iteration for exhaust emissions.

At around that stage diesel was a lot cheaper than petrol, and the Japanese started selling small diesels for cars and 4WDs. One Isuzu car model could travel at 100 km/hr on 66 mpg, and the 4WDs fuel consumption was a fraction of car cost, sp the market expanded, and today is the biggest sector of the car market, but excise was applied to diesel, diesel price increased massively, and diesel quality dropped, and today we are in the middle of a shift across to petrol where there are total cost of life models already cheaper that diesel, and new compression ignition petrol engines in some models.

EVs in todays format are not new. I can remember motor magazines discussing regen braking in the 1960s, and I've been hanging on a promise from Isuzu that they had made a battery break-through in 1986, and after 30 or so years in Australia waiting for the break throughs, total EV market share is 0.5%

The last time we discussed Electric aircraft, we were basing them on an upscale of RC electric, which is reasonablly priced and reliable, but they don't have to deal with range which is based around a 10 minute session.

At that time I was thinking of a 20 or 30 minute training flight around the circuit.

You could still upscale that simpe technology.

If you want to think of cross-country flights, or 1 to 2 hour flights, then you have to move up to car type systems and technology.

I've been talking about Nissan Leaf, because it's about the smallest system on the market, with two different power models - 110 kW (147 hp) and 160kW (214 hp)

Nissan quote a road range of 315 to 385.

There's a big difference in range between cruising along at 80 km/hr (under the Air Resistance red zone) and passing cars at 100 km/hr) and the manufacturers have been quoting the lower, but for an aircraft we are going to require full power cruise where air resistance is a major factor.

That power is being distributed through four motors in a car, so the first issue is to find a motor which for a Rag and Tube would need to produce about 80 hp(60kW) from the one engine.

Instead of a four branch electrical circuit you would have one, but its cables would need to be heavier.

For a range calculation, you can drop rolling resistance, but you still have to factor in grade resistance, and you get a benefit on descent (but no regeneration factor which the car provides with its regen system.

If you're good at Performance and Operations calcs, you'll have a good idea of what power draw to factor in on takeoff and climb x time to cruise altitude, and what you can credit to the system for time on descent, and you can calculate various power draws for the cruise. With a head wind, no more power per minute is being used, you just have the time factor. If you've got the money you can buy as many batteries as you need for your chosen Max Range, but you are limited  by (ICE/equipment/fuel tank etc/fuel) taken out and the electrical system, which itself is heavy, and you're left with battery mass to take the AC to equivalent of Wet Mass. I may have skipped a few things there, but it's as easy as that. The Aircraft frame I was thinking of was the Skyfox with faric skins.

3 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

TAX THEM ALL THE SAME, ( milage tax ) ,as in NZ.

Victoria is set to become the first state in Australia to introduce a tax on electric vehicles.

From July 1, owners of fully electric cars in Victoria will pay 2.5 cents per kilometre and owners of hybrids will be slugged two cents per kilometre.

This will be paid at registration time and is forecast to cost drivers up to $300 each year.

The NRMA has built and is rapidly expanding its charger network including in regional areas including  Ultra-rapid chargers 350kw.  I imagine this is worth so much more to NRMA EV drivers than a free WOF check.

With regard to the apparent blade moving the wrong way, the NASA sight has the same video and gives it this caption. 

 Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/ASU

2 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

1.2 litre ICE young people's/retirees little car - $20,000, MG $46,000 - Extra cost $26,000    That's probably the simple explanation.

 I wouldn't argue with this and I think at the lower end of the market EVs are at the moment overpriced but to do a full and fair comparison you have to factor in running costs such as fuel and maintenance.     An EV most definitely has higher up front cost and this is a deterrent.  It is often the case that those with a little more disposable income are in a better position to invest in technology that will save them money over its lifetime.   An example would be investing in rooftop solar, a case of upfront costs vs lower power cost over future years.

Speaking of solar, my rooftop produces an excess of power.   I sell (for a poor return) 1.5MWh per annum  back to the grid.  If I did own an EV I know where I would be putting this excess power>

I don't really understand the animosity towards EVs.  If you don't like them then don't buy one.  I think most car manufacturers have announced end dates for IC car production at around the 2035.  This means in 2034 you can buy a shiny new IC car and keep it for as long as you want.    I think the biggest factor in the changeover will be more determined by cost rather than legislation.  

37 minutes ago, walrus said:

Visit any petrol station on the Hume or Pacific freeways. Look at the volume of traffic at the pumps. Now imagine if each has to take 30 minutes to charge. Can you see the problem?

I can see that with 2021 infrastructure it would be difficult to support the number of EVs expected to be on the road by 2035.  Infrastructure usually has to keep up with new technologies.  We are not taking about an overnight change.  Although people do make long trips in EVs it may well be that for the foreseeable future a driver who travels interstate may feel an EV is not for them.     Most EV owners charge at home overnight for probably 95% of there journeys.   

12 minutes ago, jackc said:

Just imagine IF the power grid went down for even an hour over a wide area.

Yep,  no petrol from electrically powered fuel pumps.

22 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

Good thing they did a ground check but astonishing that they had to fix such a basic problem. Surely whoever built it must have run a test before they launched i

 I am pretty sure it was only an illusion caused by frame rate.  If they were indeed spinning the wrong way then perhaps this was intentional.  By the way here is a video made a while ago showing the building and testing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhsZUZmJvaM

Obviously a 30 minute flight is not of great use but neither was Wilbur and Orville's early flights.    

The world's largest electric plane just took its first flight

18 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

WHY did the government make " giving a lift " ride sharing,  illegal? .

 Did they?