Spin

John Miller?

Ah, now if someone had specified the date on which this phenomenon was alleged, that would have put a very different complexion on the matter. By the way, have we determined what direction this machine was travelling in, or supposed to be travelling in, depending on your view of the photo's authenticity? Strikes me that from a low angle it would be very difficult to pick up whether the shadow was directly beneath or displaced 6' laterally with respect to the direction of travel (ie directly toward or away from you) if it were travelling W-E or E-W at around midday. Incidently I have an indirect contact with the photographer to whom the original is attributed. He is quite widely published these days and will be able to give us a little insight. I seem to recall that he was a little grumpy about copyright, something about having assigned it to the commissioning magazine at the time, but I'll see whether I can scare up an answer.

Don if playing the man rather than the ball is your definition of reasoned discussion, then we're not likely to agree. It's an emotive subject, but let's at least try and rise above the sort of tripe dished up in the press shall we? Pilot wages at least at the more senior end of the spectrum, have tended to be quite sharply cyclical depending on where the industry is at. Entry level has as far as I know always paid starvation wages. I have friends in various widebody fleets around the world that have gone from reasonable wages to living like minor royalty within a relatively short space of time, however those same people are now fighting a rearguard action to preserve their lifestyle because just at the moment the airlines hold the upper hand in negotiations. Yes it is hard on individuals and I certainly don't hold with creating unsafe conditions, however the various unions have not been above scaremongering in the press to advance their cause - my objection boils down to the crying wolf scenario.

Unless I slept through my astronavigation classes, the sun can appear overhead down to 23 degrees S?

Offensive why Don, because he doesn't share your viewpoint? Last time I checked expressing an opinion was still allowed on here. For the record I don't really agree with Gnarly either, however there is no doubt that both sides are guilty of gilding the lily when putting forward their arguments, I'm rather tired of always having to read between the lines in the media reports.

Plenty of eucalypts where that one was taken. For that matter, have you been to California, you'd swear they were natives there. If you read the link provided above you'll see that the "long and involved story" was actually a response to questions raised in the original discussion thread, by the pilot concerned and mostly on account of the fact that the story got a little bent in the retelling ie. that he had landed in the poo for an unauthorised fly by with passengers. Frankly given that patrick55 says he witnessed one of these flights I would hope that there will be apologies for essentially calling him a liar when "a bit of research" reveals the truth.

I'll agree insofar as we need to break out of the current situation with Telstra stifling development, however whether NBN is the answer is something I am less convinced of - govts historically have a poor record with quasi commercial ventures such as this and I don't see this situation being any better.

Certainly worth a try, marine use is often a lot closer to aviation than say a car engine, ie. longish periods of constant load and high revs. Motor vehicles by comparison only use peak revs and load intermittently, if at all - I do at least 150km of mostly freeway driving on a daily basis and cannot recall when last I had the throttle wide open. By the way Evinrude, who pioneered etec, have an aviation pedigree of sorts, the original engine in the Rotorway Scorpion homebuilt helicopter was based on an Evinrude V4 of around 125hp.

That sounds like a letter to the communications minister (with a copy to the opposition counterpart:oh yeah:) is called for. I'd like to think it is just scaremongering however stranger things have happened. Dear Sir Blah blah,... please confirm that this equipment will not negatively impact current GPS installations, which are vital safety equipment in marine, aviation and rescue vehicles, and advise what safeguards have been put in place to prevent such an occurrence. Blah blah Yrs faithfully

That requirement still stands especially with certain US aircraft and is apparently a source of great sorrow to warbird collectors as many classics must be disabled eg wing spar cut through before being sold. I believe this applies to some (but not all?) of the F-111s which are currently being disposed of by the RAAF.

Tex Johnson in the prototype according to legend. Here's a photo allegedly taken from inside..

Come to think of it these opportunities come around every once in a while, it is merely a matter of recognising them when they do. For example in the early '90s the SAAF disposed of their Harvards, being one of the last large scale operators in the world. I'm open to correction but I recall that some of them at least went for around R140,000 - about $20,000 at current exchange rates! I had recently bought a house and didn't have a hope in hell of affording one, but I recall my step father commenting a few years later that he wished I had tried a bit harder to interest him in a few. Locally modified Aermacchi AM 3's (Bosbok), and Lockheed Trojans went for around R45,000 ($6,000 odd) at the time, many of which languished in hangars for quite a few years, being expensive to run and the Trojan (Kudu) in particular, a bit of a beast to land I believe. Values have climbed steeply more recently, particularly as they are genuine warbirds, often with patched bullet holes.

In some ways it seems criminal that someone didn't do it! There were similar, fairly well documented stories about Mustangs being dumped off the African Coast after Korea - they were offered to the SAAF, but they had caught the jet bug by then and didn't want them. It's possible that steeply rising losses from the by then elderly Spitfires also put them off accepting obsolete aircraft. I recall the stories about the Queensland Spitfires circulated in tandem with the above, common denominator was the number five and a disused mine. I know too that after the war Tiger Moths from the Empire Air training scheme were sold off for a few pounds each in SA, often the fuel in the tank was worth more than the whole aircraft and there was some horrific waste - more than one Gypsey engine ended up running machinery or a pump on the farms. An uncle of mine acquired one in the early 60's to build hours toward his commercial licence and often bemoaned the fact that he had sold it for next to nothing - he admitted that he fell out of love with it after the third engine failure in a year.

I've seen variations on this story over the years and done a bit of reading up, purely for interests sake you understand - there is even a website dedicated to this and details of excavations and what was found. Makes a hell of a story though and begs the question, what if? Fact or fable: hunt is on for buried Spitfires Ted Strugnell From: The Australian January 28, 2011 12:00AM IT'S the Lasseter's Reef of warbirds -- a rumoured stash of mint-condition Spitfires hidden underground in rural Queensland. Many have searched for the legendary British fighters, reportedly still in their crates and hidden since the end of the World War II around the Queensland town of Oakey, but so far nobody has been able to lay claim to what would be a multi-million-dollar find. They are the remnants of 656 Mark V and Mark VIII Spitfires that were delivered to the RAAF during the war. RAAF records show that 544 aircraft -- 232 of them Spitfires -- were flown to Oakey to be sold to a scrap metal dealer. That should have been the ignominious end of arguably the greatest single-place fighter ever built, certainly the most legendary and romanticised. But was it? Opinions vary on the mystery and stories range from a high-level defence conspiracy among RAAF officers to a single leading aircraftman who hid or buried aircraft because he couldn't bear to see the magnificent machines destroyed. If hidden aircraft do exist, there are three main possibilities: they are buried; stored in a hidden underground hangar; or secreted in a coalmine. Not everyone believes they are there. Toowoomba resident Laurie Wenham, who was employed in breaking down the aircraft prior to melting in 1948, is sceptical there are any planes. "I do not believe there are any hidden aircraft and various 'sightings' over the years were probably parts or partial aircraft pilfered or purchased as scrap," he said. But a lifetime Oakey resident, who did not wish to be named, claims to be a reliable witness to the burial site of five aircraft in what may have been a trial disposal near the old Federal Mine. He did not see aircraft going into the ground, but he saw contractors digging a trench, and a large crate in it. The contractors claimed a quarter of a century later to have buried the aircraft but could not be contacted for this story. However, this was enough to prompt Bungunya farmer and pilot David Mulckey to launch an excavation in 2001. This was the best search undertaken. It included aerial photographic surveys retrieved from the archives for the years before and after the alleged burial, which indicated substantial digging. Late access to the eyewitness and misreading of aerial surveys were blamed for the venture's failure. "As soon as I arrived I realised that we were in the paddock adjacent to, not on, the correct site," said Mr Mulckey, who did not have council approval to investigate the adjoining property. That property still contained evidence of digging and heavy lifting, even after 60 years, he said, and his aim was to return to at least eliminate this site as a possibility. More recently, another ex-World War II airman has claimed that during an exchange of confidences during an Anzac Day in the 1950s another airman, and lifelong friend, told him he and others had hidden aircraft in a hole in the side of a hill near Oakey. The underground hangar story centres on reports of a squadron of 16 to 18 Spitfires, supposedly Mk XIVs in crates, hidden in underground storage, with spares and fuel, to be used in retaking Queensland in the event of a Japanese invasion forcing a retreat to the infamous Brisbane Line. Believers of this theory say the Mk XIVs never saw service with the RAAF because they were specially imported to be hidden. This version of the story appeared in the Royal Air Force News in the 1980s and British authorities thought it had sufficient substance to send an RAF group captain, wing commander and a technical NCO to Oakey to investigate. A more likely possibility is that the underground hanger theory developed in the telling and retelling of rumours that a few aircraft had been buried, hidden or dumped in a disused coalmine. There were plenty of opportunities to do this, because there are numerous abandoned mines within minutes of the airfield. The number of aircraft and the persistence of the stories from disparate sources suggest it is likely that some aircraft remain. Private pilot and vintage aircraft restorer Bill Martin, who has possibly done more research on this subject than anyone alive, believes some aircraft exist in some form somewhere in the area. Mr Martin has photographs of aircraft in the disposal lines at Oakey around 1945 that look like Mk XIVs, and has spoken to witnesses who had seen evidence that Mk XIVs may have been at Oakey, possibly on loan from the RAF for trials. The RAF had a squadron of Mk XIVs in Australia for the defence of Darwin and some of them could have been at Oakey for maintenance at war's end. Other speculation includes the possibility that a small number of planes were fitted with classified equipment and could not be sold. A common way of disposing of aircraft was to dump them at sea, but what if one of the drivers used his initiative to deposit his loads in a mine to spend a couple of hours in the local pub rather than on the round trip to the Brisbane wharves? Lester Reisinger, who has conducted a number of searches, subscribed to the underground storage theory. "They're there, all right, under the Oakey drive-in theatre," he said. An old mine, The Federal, passed under the now-disused drive-in and was the closest to the airfield. It closed in 1943 and two separate sources believed one driver was never away long enough to make the round trip to Brisbane. It would not have been too difficult for one man to transfer a crated Spitfire from a truck to an old mine wagon, using the hand-operated gantry for transferring coal from mine carts to railway wagons. Mr Martin and Mr Reisinger several times spoke to a man who swore he had been into an underground storage facility containing wooden crates on rail trolleys. However, the witness could not tell whether the crates held complete aircraft, parts, or something else. Both men believe the witness to be reliable, but because he was taken to the site at night by another man he was unable to pinpoint a location. However, it was only a short walk from the witness's house in Federal Street, near the mine of the same name. Mr Martin also had an aerial photograph taken in 1945 clearly showing the portal to the Federal Mine still open, with rails, shiny from possible recent use, going into the tunnel. The mine entrance was collapsed in the 1950s by the Jondaryan Shire Council, and the same aerial photograph clearly shows large crates sitting beside the nearby airfield. Australian Army Intelligence judged these to be the size of Spitfire crates, but they were not there by 1948. The Spitfire was the only aircraft disposed of at Oakey that was shipped in a single crate. Ultimately, there are several possible motives, official and unofficial, for hiding aircraft. There were almost certainly numerous opportunities to do so. There are a lot of old stories and rumours, a lot of circumstantial, anecdotal and highly speculative evidence, as well as a little physical evidence. The living witness located so far is testing a memory almost 60 years old. If the aircraft exist, sufficient resources and modern technology could locate them relatively cheaply and easily, or at least eliminate the most likely place -- the old Federal Mine. It is also possible the planes have already been spirited out of Australia. Recently, another witness claimed to have seen a shipment from Sydney of three aircraft removed from a hole near Oakey in the 1980s and sold for big money in Britain. Either way, and like Lasseter's elusive reef of gold, it remains a riddle waiting to be solved. Ted Strugnell lives in Toowoomba, Queensland, and served 31 years in the RAAF, in Australia and abroad, and a further 21 years with the Department of Defence. Anybody who took part, or who has knowledge of, these or similar events is urged to contact him on [email protected]

I'll second that, this has been chewed over on the elderly plum several times and consesus by those in the know is that there is no fakery involved. Probably the most dramatic photo but by no means unique...., here are a few I found after a quick survey. No. 4 owes a little to photoshop, the others have been corroborated by eyewitnesses

And to think I've been called a stirrer! Incorrigible comes to mind:big_grin:

I may still be on my first Aussie passport, but that brought a lump to the throat.:thumb_up:

Wrex Tarr, now that brings forth a chuckle or three! Would have loved to have seen the show and it makes for an awesome photo - as he says, different place and different times, the world has become arguably more risk averse and indubitably more boring since then. I recall similar discussions following Scully Levine's original 747 display (very low)over Virginia (a 900m long GA airfield), in fact I was sitting with a few SAA pilots at the time - there was a fairly even split between those who were green with envy and those who condemned the whole exercise, despite the fact that it was also a non revenue flight and had been run over and over in the simulator beforehand. There is something pretty special about seeing the big iron put through its paces at an airshow:thumb_up: PS I'd love to see the video!

- Maj? :fishing: - Farri?

Talk about living dangerously, there are one or two I'm not game enough to suggest!! However; :ilmostro: - ozzie? :super:- darky? Only cause I couldn't find any avian references. - Nev, Facthunter? - Dazza (he's building one now) :gerg: - he he, few candidates here, fill in the blanks

Dexter I agree, although if you're really keen, the classifieds are available on the RA Aus site from the first week of the month, ie. well before the mag goes out. Still waiting for mine incidently.

Errm, we're straying rather a long way from RV-12's and suspected siezed gearboxes here.

[ATTACH]13143.vB[/ATTACH] Well done Stewy, a good way to pass on the baton. My father didn't fly, but grandfather and a few uncles did, so I got introduced to flying at about 4 or 5 and despite a few gaps, haven't been able to shake off the bug ever since. My son, then 9 was my first passenger after restarting with RAAus and I'm not sure who had the widest grin when we landed. We have shared a few special adventures since then and look forward to more to come, although I'm going to have to go GA for a while, because he has persuaded his mother that this flying lark is a good thing.

That's the name I was looking for - Demer tips! Yeah Dazza those look like them - flew a Cherokee 140 many moons ago that had them fitted, I don't think they did much for the cruise speed but it certainly didn't want to stop flying either when you were trying to land. On a more positive note, I once watched a Pacer pirouette around on a wing tip and one wheel, the Demer tips certainly prevented it from leaning as far over as it might otherwise have done...

Posted on VAF forums this afternoon; It was my RV12 down <hr style="color: rgb(209, 209, 225);" size="1"> Have just managed to get into the RV12 forum site and thought would explain what happened to my plane last saturday. As it was reported I was flying along at 1000 feet when the motor just stopped. ( i think the gear box seized) Made my calls and headed for a road which I knew I could land on, As luck had it there were no cars on the road, but when I touched down on the road I was unable to use the brakes for nose steering and went over a ditch which wiped off my under carriage and then hit a light pole with my wing and came to a stop about 30 feet after that. I now have the plane home and find there is extensive damage to wings, all the under carriage centre and nose have to be replaced which is quite extensive. Fuseage, side panels and panels under fuseage will have to be replaced as I will also have to order one wing spar plus numerous wing ribs etc etc. I was pretty confident about putting the plane down as I have been flying for many years but the one thing I did not like on the rv12 was brake steering and thats what brought me undone. Just to let you know it is a great airplane and hope to have it back in the air in 6 months. Thanks everybody for your good wishes and keep in touch.