Spin

With all due respect to the instructors (and I mean that sincerely - I couldn't do it), there is an element of "we musn't talk about it because the students will hear" creeping into the discussion. I'll admit to a problem with tailoring every response to the lowest common denominator - unfortunately all too often, sensible guidance to students somehow becomes adopted as an unbreakable rule of flight, only one step below Bernoulli, Coanda or whoever controls your aerodynamics. I saw a practical example of this; a 150 odd hour comm student suffered efato at a fairly large airport overseas. He did everything by the book, lowering the nose, scanning 30 degrees either side and elected to plonk the Warrior down in a grassy area off to the right. All well and good, except that there were drains and other nasties buried there and the Warrior got fairly buckled. The sad part was that, had his scan extended to about 80 degrees to the right, he would have noticed around 2,000m of lovely wide tarmac heading toward the horizon. Now I don't know about you but I would take a fairly dim view of even a 30 hour student who couldn't manage a 90 odd degree gliding turn at 450 - 500', followed by a deadstick on the remaining runway. What I'm trying to get at is the 30 degree "rule" is probably very necessary at first solo and a little beyond, but blinkered thinking like that really doesn't have a place in our dynamic and fluid environment once we have moved beyond the trainer wheel stage. I'll freely admit to being a low time pilot, but I have been very fortunate in having, at most stages of my learning, instructors who were prepared to allow me to think a bit outside the box and to get a real feel for what an aircraft can do. A turn back is perhaps an extreme example of this, but I don't believe that NEVER is an appropriate response.

Lots of interesting perspectives here. Couple of points I will be taking away from the discussion; i) It is possible to turn back - in certain defined circumstances, ii) It isn't something you are going to do lightly - steep gliding turns at low altitude are a relatively high risk manouevre, iii) Pilot skill and preparedness are crucial to a successful outcome, and finally iv) Proper planning before even beginning to roll will increase your chances of a positive outcome, ie brief yourself as mozartmerv suggested. Knowing ahead of time what you're going to do if the noise goes out at various phases of flight will speed up your response. This struck a particular chord with me because I spent quite a bit of time backseat in a trike, piloted by a current 747 captain. He generally had a fairly casual pose toward his trike flying, but without exception, briefed himself on efato procedures before every take off. This paid dividends on at least one occasion that I know of.

Nice one Tomo, I have to say the yellow Foxbat is a stand out for me too. I'll dig out the original photo files over the weekend as well and get them across to you.

Thanks Modestpilot, as so often happens here one gneral comment lead to a discussion off at a tangent, hence our starting a new thread. Have there been any positive suggestions from witnesses as to what might have happened?

That's interesting in about the Drifter, Frank. I don't have any LP experience (yet) but I sort of took it for granted that a slick machine with a better glide ratio, would have a greater chance of making it.

Good find Chird65, that made interesting viewing.

New thread See here; http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/general-discussion/119717-turning-back-do-you-dont-you.html

Nev correctly pointed out that this deserves a thread all of its own, so here it is; In the event of an engine failure after take off, do you adhere to the conventional wisdom that "you never turn back", restricting any turns to within 30 or 45 degrees of straight ahead or do you consider that in certain circumstances it is justified to attempt a 180 turn and land downwind? Mods: Would it be possible to move or copy the last 6 or so responses form the "Spitfire down at Gympie" thread, to here? Relevant posts have been merged into this thread - Mod

Good call Nev, interesting as it is, we have moved a long way from the original incident and its tragic outcome. Perhaps the mods can shift or copy the responses which deal with turning back to the new thread. Done - Mod

Sounds good Tomo, I don't envy you having to choose, there are some lovely photos amongst the entries.

"NEVER turn back?" Good general advice, but there are circumstances where it would be preferable to exceed the 30 or 45 degree deviation from straight ahead which is generally accepted as correct. My GA instructor demonstrated that with the 2 of us in a C150, a turnback was unlikely to succeed on a warm day, however much to my surprise, once I began flying RA, at about 800' agl on crosswind, I was able to turn the Tecnam through about 210 degrees left to maintain some distance upwind of the threshold and back through another 120 degrees right to line up and land downwind - this on my first attempt. I very much suspect that at 500' agl on the upwind leg, there is every chance that one of the modern, slick RA aircraft will reliably manage the turn back, something I want to try next time I get an instructor into an aircraft. Of course the mere fact that it may be possible doesn't make it the right choice in many circumstances, but some of the accepted wisdom in flying has not kept pace with the reality of the performance of the aircraft many of us fly. The kind of circumstances which would make me consider a 180 + degree turn back would be large timber or a built up area in an arc ahead. I remember reading a piece by Alan Bramson in the UK based Pilot magazine which proved that in competent hands even many high performance GA aircraft are also capable of making the turn back. As I recall it, he tested a variety of bank angles and speeds, concluding that 45 degrees bank at best glide plus an allowance for the increased stall speed, gave him the best chance of landing successfully back on the runway. Edit: I see David got in first whilst I was waffling

Ha ha, I wondered who would succumb to temptation and be first with the cr@p jokes.

I see the pilot has been identified elsewhere - pprune. Not someone I'd met, but by all accounts a very experienced and current aerobatic pilot; doesn't mean to say it would never happen but certainly decreases the possibility of the stall spin scenario quite dramatically, I would say. Another point I raised, regarding the very recent maintenance, also appears to have been dealt with; according to reports from the source above, the only work done was to the landing gear, nothing to the engine. Truly sad and much as one is tempted to roll out the old cliche about doing what he loved best, I very much doubt that the pilots wishes would have included destroying a lovely aircraft. RIP fellow aviator.

Hey Tomo, how are you going with judging the calendar entries? I gave myself a fright, looking at my diary this morning, not too many weeks left to compile, print, advertise and sell these before Christmas. Cheers Carl

Damn there's a photo I missed and a forumite I didn't meet - although I suspect I was admiring your aircraft when you took off John - that SS version of the small fuselage Jab sure does move along! Amazing how the time goes when you're having fun and talking aeroplanes; I suddenly realised just after 12 that I had to be elsewhere so left after about 4 and half hours without even having gotten across to the clubhouse to sample the food.

Maybe one notch of flap mate! As far as I know the pilot's name hasn't been released yet and I haven't read anything here that is anything but sympathetic to the poor bloke and his family.

Ha ha, that's a whole new argument there, I've seen pilots all but come to blows discussing the merits of shutting down the motor(s) in the event of a gear failure - and these were CPLs and ATP's, not weekend warriors. In fact there is a variation on the theme quite high up the ladder on the prune at the moment.:black_eye:

This point always comes up immediately after accidents; I firmly believe that there is a lot to be learnt from discussion of the possible reasons for an incident when it is fresh in everyone's mind. Even if some theories are ultimately proven wrong, the discussion is still a learning experience for everyone involved. Otherwise, a year or more down the line, the sanitised official report comes out, a few nod wisely and say yes I remember that and it gets forgotten by everyone other than close friends and family, no-one learns much. I don't imagine that the mods will have any compunction in deleting posts and dishing out discipline if anyone gets out of line in a discussion of this sort? My 2c on the subject:loopy: Yeah, Frank I agree, you can't let something like this stop you, it just hit me in a bit of a tender spot; all smiles after a good day and then the news takes the gloss off it.

David, that would certainly be news to people north of the banana curtain, I don't know anyone (RA) that has either an ASIC or AVID, unless they frequent RPT airports.

A little more detail in this report from the local Gympie Times. Reading between the lines one wonders whether there was an engine issue, tried to turn back to the field, followed by the all to common stall/spin scenario? I note too that the aircraft had undergone some work shortly beforehand. Something like this always hits home, whatever the cause. I had just gotten home, buzzing from having enjoyed an hour or so airborne when I heard the news; inevitable that you'd look around you and play the "what if" game. Really sad. "THE sound of an engine, nothing, then a loud bang is all that alerted Lagoon Pocket Road residents of a plane crash in a near-by paddock about 4pm yesterday. What they didn’t know was that a pilot, 61, had died just after take off from the Gympie airport at Kybong. The man was already dead when local ambulance crews arrived. It is believed the pilot was heading to the Watt’s Bridge Memorial Airfield. A local flight instructor, who didn’t want to be named, said she saw the spitfire replica take off, turn around and crash. “It’s very distressing for everybody here, as it appeared the pilot didn’t do anything wrong, it’s still unknown what could have caused the crash,” the instructor said. The conditions were perfect for a flight yesterday; sunny, with a slight breeze. Narelle and Jeff Webber, whose property backs onto the crash scene just across the river from the Gympie airport, said they heard the sound of impact and called triple-0. “I had just made a cup of coffee, sat down and heard what sounded like a soft thud,” Mrs Webber said. The plane didn’t catch fire on impact but the three-quarter replica’s nose was extensively damaged. Gympie firefighters were on scene spraying foam to ensure the load of fuel the plane spilt didn’t ignite and neighbours hearded cattle on the property to assist. It was believed the airplane was registered to a local man and arrived at the airfield on the back of a truck this week. The single-seat plane lay in pieces in the paddock while forensic police officers and civil aviation authorities tried to figure out what caused the crash last night."

Excellent, congratulations:clap:. You won't forget today in a hurry!

Still more....

More....

Well I don't know about anyone else, but I thought it was a great day out. This morning dawned sunny n fairly calm and by the time I rolled in just before 8.00am there were already about 10 aircraft parked on the grass. I was doing too much yakking to count or even photograph them all, but it looked as though we got to nearly 40 aircraft and a fair number of drive in visitors too. The barbie crew in the hangar seemed to be operating flat out whenever I walked past, so between weather, people and food, the flyin covered all the bases. Not sure how many forumites put in an appearance, but I was pleased to see Dave Butler, Daryl (Dazza), Peter (Heon) and Walter Buschor. Here are a couple of my pics, apologies for defacing them with my copywrite, but I was mightly pXXXed off to find a previous batch appear elsewhere without even the courtesy of an acknowledgement:censored:. I'm enough of an amateur to be chuffed if anyone else shows any interest in my happy snaps and would gladly send undefaced copies on request, but that struck me as poor form. Cheers Carl

From the Courier Mail; A MAN is dead after a plane crashed near Gympie about 4pm. It is believed the plane came down on Lagoon Pocket Rd, Lagoon Pocket near Gympie Aerodrome. "Details are sketchy at this stage," a Department of Community Services said. "There's believed to be one person in the wreckage, deceased." It is not known if anyone else has been injured. A Queensland Ambulance Service spokeswoman said only one passenger was aboard the two-seater aircraft. Ray Gresham lives about 800m from the crash site and was watching the plane moments before it crashed. He said the pilot, a man who looked to be in his 60s, and was likely flying his own recreational plane, a three-quarter Spitfire. "It would seem as though he spun into the ground on the final as he was coming into land," Mr Gresham said. "I heard it on the downwind, just before he came into land. "Only about a minute before he lost control I was actually watching him and then I walked back into the house." Mr Gresham, who has lived at the aerodrome for 37 years, said it was only the second crash he had seen.. He said the plane did not appear too badly damaged from a distance but must have sustained considerable damage as it spun out of control. Police are securing the scene before Recreational Aviation Australia accident investigators move in. Australian Transport Safety Bureau senior investigator Richard Batt said the Spitfire was a popular "sport aviation aircraft" but there was "no reason to believe that they are less safe than other aircraft". Gympie Aero Club past president Graeme Alexander believed the plane was normally kept at the Watts Bridge Memorial Airfield at Mt Beppo, near the Somerset Dam. "It's a replica Spitfire, which is an 80 per cent scaled version of the original," he said. "I've seen it around from time to time but I've never met the owner."