Dinga

Nev, I do not wish to hijack a thread but I am interested in what it is that might be going on at the RaAus, you have eluded to some change in your posts "When he knows where the RAAus is heading", the reason I ask is that I am not an RaAus member however it has crossed my mind to look and changing I'm just not sure if Trike Pilots have any more support with these guys than with anyone else. Craig

Hi Tasmag, cheers, however you are at least using the Samsung S which I believe is a faster processor than the A. Interesting that you mention the added capabilities with Apple, I didn't realise that there were different capabilities however having tried it briefly on a friends Samsung I did notice that the screen interface appears a little different.

Good timing for this topic guys. I am currently using an early Ipad but am looking at a Samsung Tab A 8", has anyone had any processing (or other) issues running OzRunways on this device.

Alf (post #145) I agree wholeheartedly but the items in this list I would see as something that every pilot should be considering or adhering to every-time he flys. Certainly not everyone does, we know that and many a sorry outcome has occurred during the execution of something perhaps a little silly or through lack of understanding (lets say about the weather conditions or similar). Going back to Chris's post (#143) I think this is hitting the mark. This is bigger picture stuff. So in general if we want to lead the way and improve the safety of our sport, and indeed promote it with pride then step 1 for me has to be pulling out all the stops to identify the 'true' cause of accidents. And as Chris points out not the generic 'loss of control and collision with terrain'! yes we know that and it hurts. The details of of why, as best as can be determined are our first step. The way IMHO that we are going to be able to identify this properly or at least have the best chance of this is to have industry leaders taking part, yes the Manufacturers (or representatives of) & guys like some of you on here that have many many years of experience that would have invaluable knowledge, as well as some of the more respected CFIs around the country, (we all have them in our respective states), you get the picture. I'm not saying that it would be easy nor that there will always be a true cause found but it still needs to be given its best shot. This information needs to be readily available to industry as a whole regardless of whether it was an RaAus, HGFA or any other organisation. Only once we are developing a clear picture (and working as a whole together) of this can we then look back into the root causes, it may mean changes to the Training Syllabus, there may be changes required that some people will not like but at the end of the day if it is made to improve something that is identified as a way to improve the current record then it needs to be implemented. We have to look at the bigger picture and we have to start at step 1 otherwise it becomes too big a mountain to climb. Sorry if I am seen to rant a little, but I have been involved now with WM for only just over 2 years having come over from a PPL in GA. I think it is a great pastime however the list of accidents, incidents and fatalities in the that last 2 + years is to me unacceptable. Skeptic36, great points by the way..... Craig

BB, I think you need to move nearer the coast and out of Jelcobine, the heat could be affecting you , especially with that fresh Pommie skin:oh yeah:, I should know, its taken me 30 years but I'm getting there

It's always so damn tragic, never more so than when people are involved that we see as at the top of their game where this type of incident is least expected. My thoughts sincerely go out to all those left behind but none more so than the wife and family of not only John but also Jason Caswell the passenger. For my part I can only hope that out of this something positive comes with respect to the cause of the incident, that can be taken on board by all in the industry to maybe save a life in the future. I am sure all of us that fly would want to hope that anything we were involved in could go towards improving the future safety of the industry, I know I would for sure. I'm not considered religious but god bless John, Jason and all those left wondering and hurting at this time of year. Craig

It needs to happen, as we come to the end of a year of yet again dubious statistics (not even counting the two Fixed Wing Recreational in the last week in WA) it truly is time for those with a passion for the sport and the longevity of the sport to start making some waves and looking towards some changes. Whilst I am sure it is hard to determine causes in many cases as we do not have the luxury of Data Recorders and Voice Recorders there is no reason that progress cannot be made. I am new to WM however there are many out there with the knowledge and experience to guide the change & safety process and those of us with less experience but not short of passion can jump on board and assist where relevant.

Hi Coljones your back :-) it was actually from a VFR Flight Guide, although it looks like it may have been removed or relocated in the latest version of VFRG. but I am guessing that its roots are back in one of the other docs, I'll check. Ref Docs: VFRG 2014, VFRG March 2015. :-)

Dutchroll, this is the only thing that casts a level of ambiguity on the rules as per your post. Seems that whilst the rule is quite clear perhaps this statement is why i find many people flying around on local 'joy' flights using only the CTAF Frequencies and not changing to an Area Freq when appropriate.

These are trying times yet again when someone close to some of us has gone. Flying similar to Motorcycles (I have done both) is unforgiving in so many ways. In some of the posts in this thread I can hear the pain and disbelief as is the case in the early days of such an event. The quote above strikes a chord for me because I truly believe if there is one thing that is failing to improve our safety record it is this type of information, I have already said this but it is imperative that the cause of these incidents be documented and made available to others so that changes can be made perhaps even to a training syllabus to improve the chance of avoiding any future incident. Where would commercial air travel be right now if it wasn't for the efforts of the likes of ATSB etc working together with the industry in identifying and rectifying flaws in the system and making our skies a safer place, just look back at commercial air travel statistics going back over the years. Its not luck that it is now one of the safest forms of travel per person traveled. I believe if we want to change things then we need to start understanding the 'whys' and making some changes.

Madmik, that's some broad sweeping condemnation statement there. I hear what you are saying but apart from the incidents that you bought to mind it might be an idea to see exactly how many vs how many other type wings have been involved. Additionally I am guessing that we don't know if this was a performance related incident or a failure related incident. I would be asking RAA, HGFA, ATSB and CASA to start making the cause of these open to the industry so we can better decide on what we should be flying.

Excellent response and good to hear everyones comments. I am talking here specifically about once you leave your ALA/CTAF. So for instance you take off as I do using 126.7 for our field then leave the circuit area and head along the coast. Now lets say you are in between ALAs, are you using the Area Freq or 126.7? (assuming you are below 5000') This also would affect when you are transiting past another ALA, at what point when passing another CTAF would use their frequency, 5nm? 10nm?. I too have seen in the VFR Guide words to the effect that if below 5000' 'another freq may by used'. I have not seen anything relating to 3000' but thanks I will check. Then comes the question that is raised by Coljones comment So, what is the definition of 'outside', Circuit Area?, 3nm?, 5nm, 10nm? and I believe above overfly height or above that at which conflict may occur. Anyway, good hear the comments guys.

Guys, I'd like to hear some comments on this one. Going back to when I did a PPL we used to leave the airfield (albeit a GAAP zone) and generaly change frequency to the Area Frequency, doing so as the journey progressed. I see now (certainly in several places I have been operating) that most people (Microlighting) seem to remain on or change to 126.7 once they leave their departure airfield for some local flying rather than use an area frequency. I would be interested in opinions on this and maybe its down to a change in operations between my PPL and Microlight days ?

I would agree, but to a point only. If it was as simple as this we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The point is (more so with lower hour pilots than the more experienced among us) that when it comes to "but at the end of the day the only one to keep you safe is yourself", "at the end of the day you are the only one in control of your own destiny" it is just not that simple. We as newer pilots may actually believe that we are doing the correct thing whether it is operationally or with Maintenance. With so many Microlight Pilots flying solo (so to speak) ie: from local farms or airfields or even their own property they may not have the level of contact with higher hour more experienced pilots that perhaps they would benefit from. This could then lead to perhaps them making decisions that they truly believe to be correct not realizing that they are putting themselves in danger. Sure there is the BFR, but this only serves to bring Pilot and CFI together once every two years, it may be too late by then. I feel strongly about this subject as I truly believe that this sport/pastime is fantastic and has so much potential but I also believe we are missing something that needs addressing. IMHO

Another Tragedy and my thoughts are with all those that knew either of of those involved. From the point of view of someone like myself that is relatively new to Flexwing & low hours (through the HGFA) I always find myself looking for answers to everything, finding answers to my unknowns is part of what I hope will keep me safe. I love flying and aviation and have done so since being a young kid which led me to a PPL and now to Trikes. The transition to Trikes was far harder than I expected and I constantly draw on the comments of those who have far more experience than I. One of the most troubling aspects of RA to me seems to be lack of feedback from incidents such as this, and many have spoken of this in the posts above, however when someone still finding their way like myself hears about accidents such as this involving not just a high hours logged pilot but and Instructor and very well respected one too so it appears, I really do find myself questioning the wisdom of my decision to keep flying and seeking that level of experience. Being a Technical type person, it is all about answers to me and I believe that not having concise answers as to what causes such accidents is really hurting the sport. I for one certainly am looking for, was it a wing failure, engine failure, dust devil, etc etc, how can we learn and some good, however small, come out of these incidents unless we have access to the cause? and regardless of whether we operate under RaAus or HGFA or anything else. I would have thought that it is indeed in the public (or Aviation) interest to have at least the pertinent parts of any finding released by the Coroner in the interest of perhaps saving a life later. There have been a large number of fatalities since I became involved in Trikes in recent years the accident is always in the news and after that I think I can honestly say I know the cause finding of pretty much none of them, perhaps I am just not looking in the right place........... Stay safe guys..

Agreed, and there lies the problem. Whilst the WA coast is covered in great beaches many are very soft and/or sloping and/or very remote (which wouldn't be in issue unless you were hanging upside down in your seat belt ). I'd say definitely possible but in your position with an RV I have to ask myself why? There lots of small dirt strips (and areas to land in general) close to the coast so I would think perhaps safer with that option (unless your in a Tundra Trike of course ).

you dont need to stick to your licencing organisation you can BFR with either. Just for future reference.

Hi Billy, Good to see you on board (so to speak) :cheezy grin:I've just relocated from flying at York down to Bunbury but live very close to Jandakot. Out of interest we looked at a property in Jelcobine a few months back. Good luck with the flying.

haha, yes I hear ya. I end up looking long and hard usually to work it out but of course as was mentioned previously some windsocks are better than others, usually where I fly they are either just average or they actually lie because they are in the wrong position and get influenced by terrain. Cant beat being right over the top so you can look down.

Agreed, and because I am little OCD and Black or White, I find it frustrating when I think I've picked the weather aloft from the forecast only to find that in fact its quite different. Then when this happens I 'have' to know why, what caused it and what was actually happening in the air at that time to cause the turbulence or other condition, frustrating very frustrating lol, yes Nev, I have a friend with a 50' Cat that I sail with sometimes and I must say I'd rather be picking that than the flying weather. Its not the structure that I get concerned with I think its just because when you are hanging on to the control frame you are literally feeling every movement of the pod relative to the wing unlike in a GA aircraft. Cant say I ever concerned myself with turbulent weather in GA even when it was quite bad. ah well, its would be boring if it was easy . Here's a thought. The Wx Balloon Data was based at Perth AP so more or less sea level (not sure exactly) however I was flying 130kms East at Aerodrome Elevation of 1000' so when looking at the data and relating it to say my AP level of 1000' would the 0 altitude on the data graph still relate to me or would it be the 1000' line which is the elevation of where I was flying at the time. Certainly the ground temperature at the airfield was nearer the 17C mark as shown at 0 Graph Altitude.

Hi Guys, Thanks for the comments so far, and certainly for the book recommendations I'll be seeking them out. Great explanation Nobody thanks for the effort on this, I am re-reading it still just getting my head around it. Since flying Microlights I've never been so wrapped up in what the damn weather is doing, flying fixed wing previously there seemed to be far less to be concerned with (or maybe I was just more naive back then:smile:) Anyway thanks again.

Guys, I would like to share some conditions experienced on Sun for comment by the more knowledgeable among us :-) & appreciate some comments on what you guys see as happening in relation to the Wx Balloon Data attached (wx balloon data is Perth Airport). Locations: 55nm East of Perth (Wheatbelt) Elevation 1000' Time: ~0600-0830 Local On the ground it was ~8kts 010/125 Noticeably cool from ground to ~1300' AGL and moderately turbulent with strong wind (I never checked the strength at that level). Between ~1300-1500AGL same but there were very small pockets and wafts of warm air mixing with the cool air. But still as turbulent. >1500'AGL a sudden transition to warm air and silky smooth flying. At 1500+ & all the way to 3500 (didn't test any higher) it was just hands off flying but with 15/20kts of wind still from the original direction. I'm with the whole inversion layer thing but would still love to hear any comments from other habitual wx analysers. The main thing I am looking to understand is why so much turbulence? It wasn't thermals as that hadn't kicked in and if it was wind why such turbulent wind and not more laminar flow? In general terrain around me was generally flat. Anyway, just throwing it out there for some discussion.

If there's too much crap from them and you don't look at it then take them off your page, when you have a quality list of contacts its a great way of keeping up to date, I use it for a lot of flying sites. Just a thought....... :-)

Couldn't agree more Andrew, and also like the idea of the mailing list managed independently of institutions. With any luck this would also be a way of enticing those that want to start flying too and offer a more single point of info.

Great info. The reason I was thinking about this was that in doing a PPL I remember getting the map out mid flight and using a flight omputer and map to do the whole track made good etc calculations. In an open cockpit my guess is that they do not go through that scenario as it could get really messy :-) Also its a different outlook when you are doing 40-60kts instead of 110-130kts.