Casa big brother out of control

[Bill Hamilton]

Turbo,

 

The CASA results to date, and the published US results do most certainly NOT support your contention/opinion..

 

The FAA database is huge, statistically valid, most of the very few (in relation to numbers tested) positive tests were from pre-employment screening.

 

The CASA results to date were presented to a meeting of the CASA Standards Consultative Meeting several weeks ago. The number of tests are now sufficiently large to be statistically significant.

 

There is absolutely no connection between results from auto driver screening and the aviation community.

 

I am aware of only two aircraft accidents (both GA) in Australia where postmortem blood analysis has suggested drugs (not alcohol) as possible contribution to the accident. As far as I am aware, drugs/alcohol has never been stated as the root cause of an aviation accident or incident in Australia.

 

Regards,

 

 

[Spin]

We seem to be suffering a little thread drift, starting out with concerns about how the regulations were applied, which has somehow morphed into a nondebate about the fact that we would not like ourselves or our loved ones mown down by an intoxicated pilot and/or driver.

 

I have said it before and will no doubt voice the same opinion again, the law is a blunt instrument when it comes to regulating human behaviour - where my concern lies is that along with the miniscule percentage of genuine miscreants who may fly when intoxicated, we also potentially make criminals of anyone who may be airside after having a drink or whatever their drug of choice is. Look at the original example, the jackbooted goon intruded on a meeting in the clubhouse, not on some punter preparing to commit aviation.

 

Those who are so accepting of the heavy hand of authority would do well to do some reading about the after effects of mandatory drug testing on worksites in the states - false positives caused untold misery for quite a number of people, often misery that an apology and some financial compensation couldn't put right:black_eye:

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbo,The CASA results to date, and the published US results do most certainly NOT support your contention/opinion..

The FAA database is huge, statistically valid, most of the very few (in relation to numbers tested) positive tests were from pre-employment screening.

 

The CASA results to date were presented to a meeting of the CASA Standards Consultative Meeting several weeks ago. The number of tests are now sufficiently large to be statistically significant.

 

There is absolutely no connection between results from auto driver screening and the aviation community.

 

I am aware of only two aircraft accidents (both GA) in Australia where postmortem blood analysis has suggested drugs (not alcohol) as possible contribution to the accident. As far as I am aware, drugs/alcohol has never been stated as the root cause of an aviation accident or incident in Australia.

 

Regards,

 

Bill, I'm not surprised that you weren't able to relate to what I was saying.

 

I was talking ONLY about samples taken from dead drivers.

 

CASA and FAA tests as part of a preventative campaign have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

 

Where motor skills are critical for safe operations there is a connection between different activities.

 

When you say you are aware of only two post mortem drug results, does this include the State Police reports for RA Aus accidents, and is this an automatic test on GA fatalities?

 

None of the studies I referred to, or the statistics were based on drugs or alcohol being the ROOT cause of the accident; just that when average blood alcohol levels among drivers was reduced substantially, fatalities reduced substantially.

 

 

[Spin]

BlackRod, I've also worked in a similar environment and have no tolerance for that sort of behaviour. With respect however, you are taking the example of a situation where there is an acknowledged widespread problem and applying the same "fix" to flying - where there is a particularly low tolerance amongst the participants themselves. It's like taking a baseball bat to kill a gnat - not very effective and the furniture doesn't do too well out of it either!

 

 

[Spin]

However, all I'm saying is that I'm very happy to put up with it if it is a deterrent to anyone who might abuse their privilege of flying an aircraft.

I suspect we have more common ground than points of disagreement on the subject, I suppose my caution comes from having a legal background and seeing first hand how well meaning laws can cause a world of unintended hurt in their application.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

it really does annoy me when i read or hear the terms 'rights and privilages'. If i lived in some ###thole commie country then any thing is a privilige, even breathing. But i live in a so called free and democratic country. you know 'land of the free' ect ect ect ect. well as i pay and pay i belive it is my tax paid right to fly. you lot who think it is a privilage have been brain washed to the point where you have turned into a bunch of useless girlyskirts. Anyone want to argue? i'll see you in the carpark. smarten up you lot.

 

 

[facthunter]

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, ALL of these processes should have to be revalidated as time passes, in the light of experience. IF they haven't proven effective, or required they become defunct. (Sunset clause). I was never convinced of the proven need for Drug and Alcohol testing in Aviation in Australia. I can only recall one fatal where it MIGHT have been a factor. (drug, recreational). Never proven, so we all suffer. Currently pilots are treated as second class citizens .

 

I knew of cases of health issues with crew due to personal problems and alcohol was a factor, but peer group action and voluntary involvement in correctional programmes would be the way to go. People with problems of this kind, cannot hide them from those around them. I suppopse if this was done in a reasonable manner there could not be a reasonable objection. I have been breath tested many times on the road and if they penalise those caught, and it reduces the chance of some half-bombed out person hurting me or mine then it is worth it. I just don't believe that a lot of incidents/accidents have happened in Aviation that are related to D & A....Nev

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

Turbo,

 

I understand exactly what you are saying.

 

I believe we have already proven that all too typical behavior by car drivers is NOT replicated in the aviation fraternity, whether it is pilots, LAMEs or others in aviation safety related occupations.

 

The Australian result from drug and alcohol testing is about the same as all the results I have seen from US, Canada and Western Europe, including at least one EU country that has much higher known usage rates for "recreational/addictive" drugs than many countries.

 

Thus, the aviation community stands apart in its demonstrated behavior.

 

The two accidents I am referring to were both GA accidents.

 

Do you have figures for state police reports from RAOz accidents that suggest that RAOz pilots are a less responsible bunch than GA pilots ?? Or are you just speculating ---- based on a particular preconceived personal view.

 

The quite clear fact is that the whole DAMP program, like most of the "airport security" programs (outside major airports), and the ASIC card boondoggle are all very expensive and bureaucratic answers to problems that have never been demonstrated to exist ---- as a significant, let alone major safety problem.

 

Regards,

 

 

[turboplanner]

I give up

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

ya wooze

 

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[sportaviation]

I was tested last Friday night at 17:05m. I was phoned on my mobile to come back from a Cobram a town 20 Km away to my hangar which was locked with all my aircraft inside on private property that adjoins the airport!

 

I passed the drug and alcohol test with a neg result, If I had had a beer at Cobram I would have been banned from running my business until some one from Canberra made a decision and God knows how long that would take!

 

Something is very wrong with the notion that I was available to fly when I was not anywhere near an aircraft

 

 

[crusty]

You say he tested one pensioner who does not fly and one pilot? Seems strange, it can be likened to police testing a "potential" passenger in a car and with respect to the pilot, at a club meeting where no flying is or intending to be carried out, seems like an arrogant bluff and abuse of the law! Has anyone out there contacted CASA re the real legal status as from what has been said I would be inclined to not submit to a test and certainly not supply personal details.

 

Crusty

 

 

[djpacro]

....Something is very wrong with the notion that I was available to fly when I was not anywhere near an aircraft

I wouldn't have gone back to the airport.I've been tested at Moorabbin - at a time when I was available. Being part-time, casual there are times in my booking sheet shown as not available -if it had been at such a time when I would be going off to do something else I simply would've said that I was not available for flying, refer to the booking sheet and I'd walk away.

 

 

[facthunter]

Sportaviation, I could not agree more. How much more are we going to put up with?. I suggest we compile a list of as many instances of this sort of thing as possible, (there should not even be ONE) and do SOMETHING about it. The individual cannot fight alone. The representative bodies should take a class action. You just cannot operate under this sort of threat. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Folks,For those of you rabbiting on about "human rights" and "Privacy Acts", clearly you have been watching to much US TV, there is no Commonwealth Human Rights Act. If you want to appeal the effects of Australian law (State or Commonwealth) to the UN, make certain you have very deep pockets,

Unless the constitution of Australia has been changed since the last time I read it,the way I interpret it,is, all the power and rights have been given to the government of the day and nowhere dose it talk about the rights of the individual,we only have the rights that the government choose to give us,they make the rules.

 

Unfortunately,It appears that Bill Hamilton is correct and we simply have to work within the framework of the law, when trying to get a win, whenever someone enforcing the law,is out of order.

 

Long live those fighting for civil liberties.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

ya wooze

I'm sympathetic to your feelings of late Oz, but not keen to advance the causes of illogicality.

 

If we just focus on the Methodology of testing, it seems to me the police methods of random drug testing are working without any real level of complaint, they are conducted in non controversial locations, and the test method used is quick and produces a quick result.

 

Police are already testing boat operators and it would seem a small step to point out the obviously unacceptable practices going on now, and have the testing handed over to police.

 

In the Cobram case, there would have been no pilot present to test; in the Clubrooms issue there was no one in charge of an aircraft, and so on.

 

It is normal police procedure to identify the operator, and if he is sound asleep under the wing, identify whether the ignition was isolated or not - a much fairer system.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

As some of you would already know if you have operated there. In the US if you get caught for DUI driving a motor vehical (or presumably a motor boat) the details are sent automatically to the FAA headquarters in Oklahoma City. Three times and your Pilot license revocation will automatically be in the mail.

 

This was the case with the late John Denver when he crashed the Longeze. His license revocation was in his mail box at the time due to a long history of DUI offences.

 

No doubt the way the 'controllers' are going here we could one day see the same in this country....................................Maj

 

 

[winsor68]

I wouldn't have gone back to the airport.

A refusal to comply with a test carries the same penalty as a positive result... So refusing is not an option. Sure you may win in the end but, meanwhile you will be grounded... (according to CASA's own regs)

 

I have a real problem with the method of testing applied but agree wholeheartedly with testing...

 

 

[sportaviation]

I have no problem with pilots ready for or doing duty being tested but when there is no sign that operations were not being or about to be conducted, and if failing the test you are precluded from your business untill a decision is made at a later stage with due process. Will this take one week or one month?

 

The form said I would have to a Drug and Alcohol rehab course for being over .02, When Alcahol is a legal Rec Drug!

 

I also Flew back for Sydney on a commercial flight on an almost empty Aircraft and we were served half a bottle of wine each. When I got off the plane at Albury airport I could have been tested as I walked back past all the hangars to my ride home.

 

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

 

 

[farri]

Three times and your Pilot license revocation will automatically be in the mail.

This was the case with the late John Denver when he crashed the Longeze. His license revocation was in his mail box at the time due to a long history of DUI offences.

 

Maj

Maj,off topic I know,but............ Did John Denver loose his pilot licence for being over the limit while flying or driving and didn`t he go down because the aircraft hadn`t been fueled up correctly and it`s assumed that he didn`t check the tanks and ran out of fuel.

 

Frank.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Maj,off topic I know,but............ Did John Denver loose his pilot licence for being over the limit while flying or driving and didn`t he go down because the aircraft hadn`t been fueled up correctly and it`s assumed that he didn`t check the tanks and ran out of fuel. Frank.

Hi Frank, sorry for butting in, but i read the accident report, about John Denver.This is from memory, but apparently, the fuel selector was on the rear fire wall, behind his shoulder.As he twisted his body around to switch the fuel selector, he inadverntantly pushed his foot against the pedal , to full deflection.Which caused him to lose control.Apparently, the guy who built the A/c, fitted the fuel selector, on the rear fire wall, because he didnt want to run fuel lines inside the cockpit. Thats how i remember it.I could be wrong though.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think you're on the money Dazza, either that or he wasn't able to reach the tap

 

 

[farri]

G`Day Dazza,No apology required,didn`t do anything wrong as I see it.

 

As Maj is a wealth of knowledge and referred to John Denver,I found it interesting to ask.

 

I`m always concerned about the speculation of what may have happened,in any accident, especially when there was no one else there,be good to know the facts,with the facts, we may avoid the same situation ourselves.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I have heard of GA pilot being grounded after the CAA found out of his two year driving disqualification. I think that DUI conviction is a criminal offence you'll have to state it on a form if asked. maybe that could affect your pilots licence and could be a problem for your asic. ruling from the galleries?

 

 

[justinm001]

Just out of curiosity... do they test you before or after you fly ? If they test you before you fly and your positive... how can that be used against you ? you havnt commited any offence....... ?

 

I goto one of the schools at Moorabbin and I dont believe your on the airfield until you walk outside the building and through the gate ??? (im assuming the law applies to just being on the airfield, aswell as being to in a plane). Wouldnt the testing be done inside the school ?

 

With drink driving... your either in the car (with key in ignition) or your not...

 

Also I was reading someones post in here a few days ago about how they landed and they like 30 mins later were called back to the airport to get tested ? How the hell does that work ? Who's to say you didnt have a few beers/bongs/lines on the drive home.

 

(comment removed - Mod)