sseeker Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Hi Everyone, Just a question that came across my mind when looking at an aeroplane for sale. Why is there a need for a two stroke endorsement? Looking over the syllabus it just looks like things that can be learned in a classroom and most of the items apply to four strokes as well. The aircraft I'm looking at is a single seater which requires LP and 2S to fly. I only have LP. There aren't any aircraft with 2S engines for hire in WA so it could be incredibly hard to obtain the endorsement. The only option is to fly someone else's aeroplane and not a lot of people are happy for that to happen. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Two stoke engines need to be treated differently to four stroke otherwise you will run the risk of cold seizures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 That just leaves me with one problem. How do I actually get the endorsement? Would it come down to having to borrow someone's plane? -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 use your own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 I can't... The A/C I'm looking at is a single seater. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 The question Andrew is asking is - "Can I get a 2 stroke endorsement without flying one?" Any knowledgeable flying instructors got an answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 I don't mind flying one to obtain the endorsement, I just don't have the availability of two strokes like other states do. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Our sport is meant to be an area where responsible adults employ their own standards of risk management towards the sensible aims of safe operation. This should mean that participants will seek information required to fly and operate the aircraft safely. The insertion of a formal endorsement is, in my opinion, unnecessary and possibly dangerous because it can lead to overconfidence when the approach to all engines should be - don't trust them (but know them as well as possible). We have been using 2-strokes for 30 yrs and they have improved over that time. Never-the-less they tend to fail without warning and no endorsement can prepare one for that. Fly the aeroplane! The current regime at RAA ( I still greatly prefer the monicker AUF) is too wedded to the bureaucratic approach of CASA. This leads to less flying at greater cost and as I have said could compromise safety by breeding a less self reliant attitude towards safe operation. Learn by whichever means you feel suits you but never relax. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi Don, Unfortunately you can't take matters like this into your hands. Not having the endorsement and having an accident could pose serious legal problems. The endorsement might not train you for any engine failure but it protects you when your engine does quit and you damage property. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I don't see a two-stroke endorsement as something required by the Ops Manual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 It's an endorsement, so I guess if you were flying a 2 stroke and had an accident and didn't have the endorsement on your books there could be questions asked.. but that doesn't answer the question does it. Andrew, you could probably get away with just verbal instruction on it, but really the 2 stroke motors ARE different to operate, and not only that, but have quite different feel to them, including the power curve. You'd get used to it pretty quick, but it's more knowing the operation on oil mixture. Start up procedures. I think the main thing they want people to have the extra knowledge on is the fact that you need to understand the need for oil, either by auto feed, or fuel mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 I don't see a two-stroke endorsement as something required by the Ops Manual? Hi DJ, It's under section 2.07 with the heading, "Two Stroke Endorsement" it states that I need to undergo dual training with an RA-Aus examiner or meet the competencies and forward a letter to RA-Aus... Does starting/stopping/maintaining my lawn mower count? It's an endorsement, so I guess if you were flying a 2 stroke and had an accident and didn't have the endorsement on your books there could be questions asked.. but that doesn't answer the question does it.Andrew, you could probably get away with just verbal instruction on it, but really the 2 stroke motors ARE different to operate, and not only that, but have quite different feel to them, including the power curve. You'd get used to it pretty quick, but it's more knowing the operation on oil mixture. Start up procedures. I think the main thing they want people to have the extra knowledge on is the fact that you need to understand the need for oil, either by auto feed, or fuel mix.[/Quote] Tomo, I may just have to find someone willing to let my instructor and me do the endorsement? it would be if u flew one..............[/Quote]Maybe I'm missing something? -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I don't mind flying one to obtain the endorsement, I just don't have the availability of two strokes like other states do. Find someone with an Aerochute perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi Gnarly, Thanks for the suggestion but because I don't have an aerochute rating on my licence, I don't think they'll count it. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi Gnarly,Thanks for the suggestion but because I don't have an aerochute rating on my licence, I don't think they'll count it. -Andrew When the mountain won't go to Mahatma... Mahatma must go to the mountain. Travel somewhere for a few days and do your 2-stroke training. The only 2 stroke flying I did was cheaper than the new Lsa per hour... the saving should be enough to mostly cover the cost of a few days away from home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Really! it all sounds like a con on top of con. I got a suggestion. Make a list of all the endorsments that you can obtain via RAAus and another list via GA. lets see who has the most. when does it end. electric next. wireless headphone endo. fly by wire. Edited by mod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I have been looking at the same sorts of issues - I want to buy something like a Thruster (so probably 2s, tail wheel and low speed), but almost all the available training is high speed, 4 stroke and nosewheel. I can find a Gazelle not too far away to get low speed, perhaps a Lightwing for the tail wheel, but the only 2 stroke option I know of in NSW would at Camden, I think. The Aerochute looks like an attractive option for the two stroke endorsement. Firstly, there are at least two available for training within five hours drive of me. Also, you don't need the Aerochute endorsement to train, so you can either get the two stroke endorsement and stop there, but it might be a lot of fun to go on and get the Aerochute endorsement. It depends on how much extra time would be required to get both - I get the impression that Aerochute endorsement probably won't take much more than the mandatory 5 hours, and that might well include two stroke, so it might take little or no more than 5 hours for the pair. I also just like the idea of an Aerochute, so I might be biased by that! dodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 It's under section 2.07 with the heading, "Two Stroke Endorsement" it states ....... I didn't state that it does not exist. 2.07 only tells you how to get one. I don't see a two-stroke endorsement as something required by the Ops Manual 2.01, Flight Crew Limitations does not identify a two stroke endorsement as being required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 funny how no one has suggested contacting your RAA state representative for help 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 I didn't state that it does not exist. 2.07 only tells you how to get one.2.01, Flight Crew Limitations does not identify a two stroke endorsement as being required. DJ, I might give the operations manager a ring on Monday to ask about that. Doesn't look like it is a requirement, although why have it if it's not required? -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyfox1 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 ops l must read my opps manual l fly both never new there was any difference did my training in drifter 2 stroke and fly a skyfox 4 stroke .l though l was allowed to fly both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 ops l must read my opps manual l fly both never new there was any difference did my training in drifter 2 stroke and fly a skyfox 4 stroke .l though l was allowed to fly both. Then you should have a 2S endorsement from your training. 4Stroke has no specific endo, so all you need is type approval signed off in your log book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 G'day Flyers, To start: Fuel boost on, choke (enrichers) on, Throttle closed, press start (pull rope), throttle smoothly forward while pulling choke off. Thoroughly warm at 2 or 2.500 rpm then taxi to threshhold. Never give full throttle to a cold engine. Descend towards landing with a little power to avoid shock cooling. I'm sure others can add refinement to this but 10 minutes would cover it. Oh, I almost forgot - add correct amount of good 2-stroke oil to fresh petrol just before adding to tanks. I thjink that 4-strokes with their propensity towards icing are at least as demanding. The RAA are directed towards instructor based, fee for service accumulation of proficiency badges. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 2S is an endorsement, so it is there for a reason. If you trained on a drifter/thruster you should have done a fairly thorough run down on Two-stroke idiosynchrasies. If you are not two stroke "savvy", you shouldn't fly one unless someone who is careful with them does a bit of preparation, and checking for you. As time goes on there will be less people around that really inderstand them, and as they are getting older they will be less serviceable generally, and will no doubt get bagged for being unreliable. Properly used and checked they can have an acceptable level of reliability. You won't learn much about them from bar room chat. The majority will never come in contact with them these days. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I guess its an endorsement without a clear definition...Some instructors won't fly with them... So like you say... Two Stroke instructors are getting rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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