Guest davidh10 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Observed yesterday: Radio call announcing an aircraft joining "Right Downwind for Runway 01, Yarrawonga". When called and told that Yarrawonga has left hand circuits, he responded by saying "ERSA does not say so", and proceeded to complete a right hand circuit and land. This isn't the only time I've observed inbound aircraft perform a Right Hand Circuit at YYWG. It seems there are a lot of pilots who do not understand some of the basic rules of the air, such as "LEFT HAND CIRCUITS ARE STANDARD unless notified otherwise in ERSA. So what else does this pilot not know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 That's a worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campslive Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 That's a worry. i am certain the YYWG AIRPORT MANAGER WOULD OF INFORMED HIM,,,LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 While it's true there are some who don't understand the basics, David, I don't agree there's a lot, because I'm finding most pilots do have the basics. Admittedly, there are the few Know All Know F**k Alls (KAKFAs) who annoy the bejeezus out of the rest of us when they don't read their ERSA. But I'm finding even they respond reasonably well to polite reminders. Here at Gunnedah, we have our own CTAF freq of 127.4, and we have R/H ccts on RNWY 29 to minimize traffic overflying the town. It's not at all uncommon for people to overfly to join the circuit with out having made any transmissions on CTAF. A gentle broadcast from the ground on 126.7 stating Gunnedah's CTAF is 127.4 and RNWY 29 has R/H ccts usually fixes the problem real quick and with no hassles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campslive Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 While it's true there are some who don't understand the basics, David, I don't agree there's a lot, because I'm finding most pilots do have the basics. Admittedly, there are the few Know All Know F**k Alls (KAKFAs) who annoy the bejeezus out of the rest of us when they don't read their ERSA. But I'm finding even they respond reasonably well to polite reminders.Here at Gunnedah, we have our own CTAF freq of 127.4, and we have R/H ccts on RNWY 29 to minimize traffic overflying the town. It's not at all uncommon for people to overfly to join the circuit with out having made any transmissions on CTAF. A gentle broadcast from the ground on 126.7 stating Gunnedah's CTAF is 127.4 and RNWY 29 has R/H ccts usually fixes the problem real quick and with no hassles... how very true,it only takes a min to advise people and inform them rather than laugh and make fun of! some actually learn more and remember a polite conversation with helpfull hints, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 The question, " what else does this pilot not know " is a very important point and I dare say that it also applies to all of us. Let`s all remember that a pass mark of only eighty percent is required for most if not all writen exams so that means that twenty percent of the subject matter is incorrect and that twenty percent may well be the most important part required. One day I asked a very well known and respected GA CFI friend of mine, " How does anyone get to know all that there is to know in aviation,"? he thought for a moment, then replied, " Does anyone ever get to know everything" ? Frank. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 The question, " what else does this pilot not know " is a very important point and I dare say that it also applies to all of us............... Frank. Well said Frank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Let`s all remember that a pass mark of only eighty percent is required for most if not all writen exams so that means that twenty percent of the subject matter is incorrect and that twenty percent may well be the most important part required. The pass mark for my PPL exam was 80%, but I wasn't signed off as having passed until the chief testing officer went through all the answers I got wrong to make sure I understood where the error was. As my instructor said, you are supposed to get the exam questions 100% correct. However, realistically nobody is ever going to know or remember everything, even with regular revision. rgmwa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 All well and good getting a pass in the exam - most concerning to me is how much is actually remembered and who keeps up with changes after a little while! If you head along to an Avsafety seminar or to you can get a good grasp of just how little the average GA pilot actually remembers or keeps up to date with. At a couple they asked the "How much fuel do you need to carry" question and it was stunning just how few actually knew. There were some coming out with regulations from the 70's for goodness sake! Another good indicator of how little we keep up to date is the amount of radio calls you still hear starting with "All stations". It's really the most minor of changes yet it's a great indicator of people not keeping their knowledge and abilities current in my view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 But the whole thing with the exam is that getting a mark of 80% simply says you are ready now to go on to a less structured form of continuous learning. The inference here is that 80% at that time will probably degrade over time if the exam was to be resat at a later stage, Is that a fair and true assumption? I'd like to think that experience and the 2yearly mnadated checks mean that overtime you are a better and more knowledgable pilot. Insurance rates over time would suggest that is the case.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Observed yesterday: Radio call announcing an aircraft joining "Right Downwind for Runway 01, Yarrawonga".When called and told that Yarrawonga has left hand circuits, he responded by saying "ERSA does not say so", and proceeded to complete a right hand circuit and land. The person would know the standards I'm sure, just being a smarty pants with a reply like that. I must admit I've done right hand ccts at certain places for various reasons. Usually I advise doing so with a double repeat of 'right'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I certainly don't pretend to be perfect and I won't make fun of people's knowledge deficit. As Volksy said, it is surprising to hear some of the questions at safety seminars. That said; Full marks to those pilots who attend and ask the questions. They are doing something about it. On the previous occasion of an aircraft announcing a right hand circuit, after being told that left hand circuits are required, changed and did a left hand circuit, not just continued after the advice, or even arguing with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Observed yesterday: Radio call announcing an aircraft joining "Right Downwind for Runway 01, Yarrawonga".When called and told that Yarrawonga has left hand circuits, he responded by saying "ERSA does not say so", and proceeded to complete a right hand circuit and land. This isn't the only time I've observed inbound aircraft perform a Right Hand Circuit at YYWG. It seems there are a lot of pilots who do not understand some of the basic rules of the air, such as "LEFT HAND CIRCUITS ARE STANDARD unless notified otherwise in ERSA. So what else does this pilot not know! Hi David There are a number of airfields where right-hand circuits apply to at least one runway. At Coldstream, all circuits for 17/35 are to the east and conducted at A015 (~1200 AGL), At Lilydale across the way, they are all to the west on 18/36 at 1250 (~1000 AGL). This gives a bit more clearance from high ground to the south of Coldstream and also tries to ensure reasonable separation of aircraft arriving at one or the other. The prospect of meeting someone on a reciprocal base or at some other point in the circuit is a terrifying one, indeed. A couple of years ago I was doing circuits on 35 and climbing out right crosswind and using the radio. The Auster doesn't give much of a view out front when the nose is up and I pushed the stick forward momentarily before turning right downwind as required by the local rules. I was horrified to find someone in a Warrior in the process of joining downwind at the same time, level and place in the sky as me. But he was turning left having arrived from the east and without a call. I talked to him after we both landed and he hadn't seen or heard me at all. The moral of the story is that an aeroplane is a small speck on the windscreen one second, and bloody well fills it the next when their combined approach speed is nearly 200 knots so follow the circuit direction at all times but expect the unexpected. kaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Right hand circuits at parts of the Oaks, Jaspers and some others to keep aircraft away from the serial complainers and town folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Left hand or right hand, does it matter? YES IT BLOODY WELL DOES. Unless it's a private airstrip you need to follow the rules (check ERSA) to keep everyone safe. (ALL LH circuits unless specified). I was on a base leg at a country airstrip when a radio call announced a pilot was down wind for the same runway as me. Wrong. He was upwind for the 180 deg opposite runway which was would put him landing downwind but on the same side as anyone else flying a left hand circuit. WTF. The 3 windsocks were all straight down the RWY with a good 20 knots on the ground. He announced joining overhead & then got it all wrong. Well I let him know should I say rather firmly & landed. He then flew off gaining height, did a couple of orbits and then disappeared. Radio calls though had somehow completely disappeared from his aviation skills. He got he RWY wrong & was doing a right hand circuit to land downwind. Lucky I was on base & not downwind at the time. Beware they walk among us, they vote and some have managed to get into the air. Grr I need cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongie Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 While at some stage we all need to do rh circuits for whatever reason, I don't know why you would ever choose to do one when one doesn't have to? At palmyra we do rh circuits on 18, because or the close proximity of ybmk airspace immediately east of us, and I know, wind permitting, I would rather use 36 and do a lh circuit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Well you all want to try the confussion and absolute crap that starts when you have cross strips with 1 left hand and 1 right hand circuits , add to this the fact that yep somepeople dont use radio, and coming in on climbout, about to turn right on the right hand cct and see an AC go right across in front on downwind for the other strip Who the friggin hell thinks of this crap, and yes its in ERSA for cct directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Thank goodness it wasn't an RAA pilot, 'cause its a poor reflection on who ever trained and assessed that pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 RH circuits are just that for a reason, usually around safety or people. e.g there may be obstructions like hills or trees or safety considerations like houses, playing fields etc to determine the circuit direction. If the strip is in CTAF then radio is mandatory. If not the common sense and courteous thing to do is to determine the runway in use, usually by listening to the radio of other traffic or by observation if you have no radio. The windsock should determine the best runway to use but if one is much shorter than the other & there is light wind it is better to uses crosswind techniques on the longer runway. If the wind is strong the windsock will be standing straight out. It may also be swinging if it is gusty but in most cases the runway choice is obvious. If it is calm then always use the longest runway & make it the "runway in use". If people do whatever they like it does become dangerous & I for one would be letting other pilots know by using the radio or telling them face to face on the ground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well you all want to try the confussion and absolute crap that starts when you have cross strips with 1 left hand and 1 right hand circuits , add to this the fact that yep somepeople dont use radio, and coming in on climbout, about to turn right on the right hand cct and see an AC go right across in front on downwind for the other strip Who the friggin hell thinks of this crap, and yes its in ERSA for cct directions. Usually the circuit directions are determined by the aerodrome owner, based on the required standards (or not), but can sometimes be governed by noise avoidance, to avoid low flying over houses or for obstacle avoidance (like mountains). Where there is a cross strip, all aircraft should be using the "Active Runway", however if they have a good reason for using the other runway, it is perfectly allowable. In doing so, however the PIC must ensure that it is done safely with respect to the other aircraft in the vicinity. It is unfortunate that quite a few have interpreted the (not so) new radio use rules to mean they don't need to make any calls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_S Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Penfield has all circuits to the west, so it's LH for 36 and 33, and RH for 18 and 15 in order to avoid traffic at Riddells Creek, which is very close (2nm) to the north east, and where they have all circuits to the east for 02-20 so we avoid each other. People should always read the ERSA and preferably give a phone call to the airfield if they have not been there before to get a briefing. As others have said, it's not just good airmanship - the procedures are there to save your life. Cheers Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Usually the circuit directions are determined by the aerodrome owner, based on the required standards (or not), but can sometimes be governed by noise avoidance, to avoid low flying over houses or for obstacle avoidance (like mountains).Where there is a cross strip, all aircraft should be using the "Active Runway", however if they have a good reason for using the other runway, it is perfectly allowable. In doing so, however the PIC must ensure that it is done safely with respect to the other aircraft in the vicinity. It is unfortunate that quite a few have interpreted the (not so) new radio use rules to mean they don't need to make any calls! Often hear pilots asking ' what's the duty runway' or, 'what's the active'?. In reality, there's no requirement to follow anyone else. For all you know, they could be intentionally operating crosswind, or a heavier aircraft prepared to accept a significant downwind component. There seems to be a trend toward joining the circuit via the closest available leg - rather than overflying 500 ft above the highest circuit at that location..... and actually looking at a windsock, and then deciding on a circuit entry. (like we used to do!!) I see a lot of missed approaches because of this, and from what I can ascertain, it's due to both trying to fit in, and to economics. Not safety though. As far as radio goes - it takes time for the word to spread that there are only a couple mandatory calls and the rest optional. Blind faith in the radio as a primary safety aid seems the modern rule. It seems we are going to have to suffer the calls made at every leg of the circuit, plus an acknowledgement of every other call, plus a couple for the insurer, and mum & the kids. happy days, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Often hear pilots asking ' what's the duty runway' or, 'what's the active'?. In reality, there's no requirement to follow anyone else. For all you know, they could be intentionally operating crosswind, just for practise or under instruction while learning or a heavier aircraft prepared to accept a significant downwind component. In my meagre experience, usually aircraft landing downwind do straight-in approaches, making it less likely that you will meet them head on when, for instance descending on the "dead side" or preparing to join.That said, you often find where there are a mixture of left and right hand circuits, there is no dead side, but in that case there are often specific procedures in ERSA. There seems to be a trend toward joining the circuit via the closest available leg - rather than overflying 500 ft above the highest circuit at that location..... and actually looking at a windsock, and then deciding on a circuit entry. (like we used to do!!) I see a lot of missed approaches because of this, and from what I can ascertain, it's due to both trying to fit in, and to economics. Not safety though. We haven't experienced too much of that here. Most seem to do standard circuits, some straight-in and there's an occasional base join. When we are flying formation, we often do pitch and recover landings, but only if there's no other aircraft in the circuit at the time. As far as radio goes - it takes time for the word to spread that there are only a couple mandatory calls and the rest optional. Blind faith in the radio as a primary safety aid seems the modern rule. It seems we are going to have to suffer the calls made at every leg of the circuit, plus an acknowledgement of every other call, plus a couple for the insurer, and mum & the kids. happy days, Again,; Interesting; We seem to experience the opposite...no calls, but I think it is slowly getting better. I think the problem arises due to taking the wording in the CAO literally, rather than the CAAP 166 interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 How do you change the active runway. I have seen at a busy strip aircraft continuing to use a downwind take off when there has been a 180deg wind change. When everyone is taxiing for 28 there may be several on the taxi way and if you call that you are going to use 06 because of the wind change, it takes a lot of sorting out. Don't say it won't happen, because I have seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 How do you change the active runway. I have seen at a busy strip aircraft continuing to use a downwind take off when there has been a 180deg wind change. When everyone is taxiing for 28 there may be several on the taxi way and if you call that you are going to use 06 because of the wind change, it takes a lot of sorting out. Don't say it won't happen, because I have seen it. When it is an untowered aerodrome, the active runway is only defined by usage. If you decide to land on a different runway and then do so, you have just changed the active runway. The exception would be if there is a multicom and a ground station providing pilot guidance, such as at NatFly. In that case, safety would dictate that you use the runway requested unless there is an overriding safety reason for a different choice. Bottom line. You are PIC and it is your decision what is the best runway. Even at a controlled aerodrome, an aircraft needing to use a specific runway, contrary to ATC allocation can call and "Require RWY nn", and unless there is a conflict, ATC must comply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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