Spinning in the clouds

[Mark11]

this forum always flushes out the pros and cons of every post.... thats why its great!

 

 

[Guest turk182]

Interesting video, some observations;These are what I would term 'aerobatic' spin entries, via the use of full back stick and rudder while still at flying speed.

This usually results in a snap roll which will stabilise into a spin after a turn or two (as the commentary says)

 

Real spins occur at very low or stalling speed, often when concentrating on some other problem like an engine failure or trying to stretch a glide when turning low on final.

 

It is more important to be able to recognise the situation or onset of the stall, ie; buffet, heavy elevators yet vague ailerons, or the 'quiet' of the aircraft.

 

As for the recovery shown, I've never seen this method before, it works on this aircraft, (obviously) but I'm not too sure why?

 

There are very few aircraft that will remain in the stalled (and therefore spinning) attitude when you release the stick and pedals, as he demonstrates.

 

His recovery is to put hands on dash and apply opposite rudder, implying that rudder alone is stopping the spin?, or are we to assume that the plane is so pitch sensitive that the act of two people leaning forward is enough to unstall the aircraft while the rudder stops the rotation?

 

Would be interested to know what type of plane it is...?

 

The engine stopping is a bit of a concern, I'm assuming it runs out of fuel within three rotations?!

 

Maybe the use of a fuel pump would be prudent.

 

All in all an interesting video, but I think the more generic version of recovery, "Stick going forward with opposite rudder until rotation stops, then recover", is the preferred method.

 

Arthur.

 

ps, remember kids, don't try this at home, we're not allowed!!

What are you a senior instructor in, aeroplanes or something else?

 

 

[Ultralights]

I didn't know we were calling the Robin 2160's, an 'Alpha 160' now?

The Robin 2160 was manufactured by Canadian company and is of French design, some time ago they went bust, a NZ company bought the production rights to the Robin 2160 and now manufacture a variant called the Alpha 160. The aircraft at red baron used for training are the Alpha 160, Pitts specials, and the Extra 200 for advanced training.

 

 

[djpacro]

... As for the recovery shown, I've never seen this method before, it works on this aircraft, (obviously) but I'm not too sure why?

On some airplane types the aerodynamic and inertia forces on the aileron and elevator controls combine to put those controls exactly where they need to be for recovery. Rudders typically trail pro-spin so need to push the pedal. Plenty of videos online showing it working for Pitts types etc from multiple upright and inverted spin modes.

 

.... Aircraft with normal tailplanes will begin to recover as soon as you let go of the stick....

Seems to me that all the aeroplanes that I have spun have at least one mode where it will continue to spin quite happily. Begg's reported that the Cessna 150 spinning to the left with power on then closing the throttle, releasing the yoke and applying full opposite rudder would continue to spin with no sign of recovery after waiting six additional turns. In some other types it is interesting how a stick can get "locked" in the full pro-spin position with the result that it keeps spinning.

 

...... but I think the more generic version of recovery, "Stick going forward with opposite rudder until rotation stops, then recover", is the preferred method.

power off, aileron neutral, opposite (the yaw) rudder then stick forward (in that order) is the standard method (but again doesn't work on a number of types nor in some spin modes on a number of others).

 

.......... remember kids, don't try this at home, we're not allowed!!

But we are allowed.

[facthunter]

I agonised over this. To some of you who reckon (hope) no-one will go out and try it, I say I have been around for a while and I am sure someone will ( as they do flyin cloud, do aero's, fly at night. turn back etc. and they DIE. If I save ONE life I will put up with whatever criticism you throw at me. I am safety oriientated Why is that a problem? Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I know sally. And I know she wouldn't post anything she thought could bring a pilot unstuck. I think that she, like most people, apply their own standards and ideas to the general population. We find it hard to belied that a pilot would read something like this and go and try it. But I have to agree with Nev. Unfortunately we do need to be very anal when it comes to things like this. We need to consider the lowest common denominator.

 

Cheers

 

 

[djpacro]

Just a couple more comments on my prior post:

 

- "stick forward" - how far forward? Some must have full forward stick otherwise they will not recover at all. Some will not recover if you use full forward stick.

 

- "we are allowed" - per the rules with the appropriate training, endorsement and approved airplane

 

I often hear about "rogue" spins or stories where pilots have had trouble recovering from a spin. It is not as straightforward or as simple as some may think. Sally is getting some excellent training with the Red Baron.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I know sally. And I know she wouldn't post anything she thought could bring a pilot unstuck. I think that she, like most people, apply their own standards and ideas to the general population. We find it hard to believe that a pilot would read something like this and go and try it.

That's pretty much what I was suggesting. It is almost inconceivable that a Forum member would rush out and do such spins, all revved up after watching a 2 minute video or after reading Sally's report accompanied with appropriate red-letter warnings.

 

Unfortunately we do need to be very anal when it comes to things like this. We need to consider the lowest common denominator.Cheers

OK, who could hold a hand on their heart and point to any Forum member here and classify them as a "lowest common denominator" pilot. (no names please if for some reason who think there is one here who fits that category). I am actually somewhat disappointed by these suggestions as I truly believe there are mature adults here who would all have sufficient self-restraint to hold back the urge to spin after reading this thread.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes certainly, as a whole. Most are responsible, mature intelligent people. MOST..Just read the thread on turnbacks, there are still those that remain unconvinced that all the hype is warranted.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Fly_tornado and Motz..... Enough! A couple of days in the sin bin for the pair of you if you keep it up.

 

 

[eightyknots]

All right Merv, we have to ignore the thread writer(s) who frequently come up with a remark which adds little or anything to thread value and, by the way, I think they 'contribute' for personal entertainment ...especially if a "bite" results from any of their thread comments. Even then I find it hard to believe that they would rush out and start spinning without any training. And, even then I wouldn't and couldn't classify them as a "lowest denominator pilot".

 

 

[motzartmerv]

 

2 of the pilots in the above videos are dead, I dont know about the other one.

 

 

[pylon500]

All interesting points, but again a few clarifications;

 

"Doing a Spin in a Breezy", the aircraft shown actually spinning is NOT a breezy, it's a Phantom (or similar) american ultralight.

 

lowest common denominator

Sorry ahlocks, but I can think of a few of those described above, yes, unfortunately they are out there.

 

But we are allowed.

Well OK, however, when I joined this forum it was basically aimed at ultralighters so I guess my original mindset got in there...

 

NZ company bought the production rights to the Robin 2160 and now manufacture a variant called the Alpha 160

Well there you go, learn something every day!

 

What are you a senior instructor in, aeroplanes or something else?

I am currently a Senior Instructor in what I still call Ultralights, but all my spinning history was during my 200 odd hours in Gliders.

But like your avatar quote, I'll also fly anything with wings (given a chance)

 

Arthur.

 

 

[ossie]

Can't work out what all you blokes are gettin upset about.

 

I practice all the time.....

 

 

 

[Guernsey]

He must be the Chairman of the spinning association.

 

Alan.

 

 

[seb7701]

'2 of the pilots in the above videos are dead, I dont know about the other one.'

 

Yes, this may be true, however I don't believe it would have been the result of reading a forum post such as Sally's sensibly written post and more likely, they were determined to do what they did, regardless of advice to the contrary. It pains me a little to see how often simple posts on this forum get hijacked by 20 subsequent posts concerned about disclaimers and other things which are generally averted via common sense. Yes, I know that common sense can be lacking, but again, anyone who watched the video would realise that we aren't talking about a simple manouvre either.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Seb, I dont see it as highjacking. Both sides of the coin need to be discussed for it to be a balanced forum. I loved the vide, and also sally's post. All I am saying is caution needs to be displayed.

 

You are correct that we can't know if the 2 dead guys (3 if you count a passenger) ever read forum post's such as this, and your probably right that they would have done it anyway. BUT would reading this sort of thing encourage or discourage them?

 

Sally was very clear to point out it shouldn't be attempted, but, like you said above, some people are going to attempt it anyway and think they are armed with 'instruction'.

 

 

[facthunter]

It is part of learning to fly that I have always recommended for anyone who wants to be fully in control of their plane in unusual attitudes/situations.

 

Sally Is not an instructor. ( I am not saying she made herself out to be one either) IF we are going into details of spinning on this forum, I would say WHY? IF a summary of all the in's and out's of it were to be done it would have to be scrutinised carefully before publication, for errors.

 

It's not the complete picture either, but some might think it is complete enough. Plenty find the confidence to give things a go when they are seriously underqualified.

 

There are plenty of sites where this can be analysed if one want's to learn more.

 

I'm a little puzzled at the opposition I have received here. I became concerned when the "wanta do it,... looks like fun" sort of thing comes out. I have never taken anyone up for spin instruction who felt they were doing it for fun. If they are not taking it very seriously, they should be ,or they don't belong there.

 

The people who make those comments are probably not being serious and I will get the usual "loosen Up" 'Nev and we are all sensible on this forum etc, but it's an OPEN forum. Have you forgotten.?.

 

I would like Sally to ask her instructor if it is a good idea to publish this stuff. I don't ( I have made that clear).

 

Those who want to stop people like me from pointing out what I consider to be bl88dy obvious, should ( to be fair) allow me to make the contrary view, to the popular one. I NEVER want to stifle comment in normal circumstances, but this forum is read by many and we have come unstuck before.

 

Flying technique is required to be right. Planes don't forgive bad pilotage. Spinning is a very dangerous manoeuver. Probably the most dangerous manoeuver you will do..EVER. Haven't you often heard when somebody is asked why they did something the way they did? I READ it SOMEWHERE.. is often the answer . Nev

 

 

[AeroGirl]

If I had have know that what I wrote was going to cause so much controversy I would not have written it, the reason I did was to respond to other posters in an informative manner because of comments around the training I am receiving being incorrect in their eyes.

 

Unfortunately common sense and taking responsibility for ones own actions is so lacking in today's society it is getting to the point where people are afraid to say anything in case someone jumps on you about it, or decides in their own stupidity that they may try it without the appropriate training and in in-appropriate aircraft.

 

The founder of Sydney Aerobatics School (now called Red Baron), Noel Kruse has published an excellent, and free, set of aviation books on his Fly Better website, and soon will also publish the 5ht edition of the series which is on aerobatics, there are also countless other publications in print and on the web on how to do aerobatics. Do we suggest that we work on banning or suppressing all of these just because of a few stupid individuals who might go out an try it without the appropriate training, endorsments, aircraft and kill themselves?

 

Irrespective of my post, people who decide to undertake risky things, such as spinning and aerobatics, without the appropriate training and equipment, such as the people in the videos posted who died, will do so regardless of what you or I say, and hence are prime candidates for their genes to be removed form the gene pool.

 

I am seriously thinking of removing the post and disappearing into the void

 

I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE AND WILL SAY IT AGAIN, IF YOU THINK ABOUT TRYING THIS WITHOUT THE APPROPRIATE TRAINING, ENDORSMENTS AND ENDORSED AIRCRAFT, YOU ARE ASKING TO DIE!!! DO NOT DO IT!!!!

 

It is a hell of a lot of fun doing spins, rolls, loops, wingovers and pulling 4 - 5G, so if you want to do it, go to a school that specialises in teaching aerobatics, get the right training, use appropriate aircraft, get endorsed and have fun.

 

Living results in death, lets ban living cause someone might die.

 

 

[Tomo]

Don't be discouraged Sally, please.

 

 

[seb7701]

Motz, I hear where you are coming from and will be quite happily agree with you to a degree, but Sally (who owes no apologies in my book) nailed it in paragraph two above - 'Unfortunately common sense and taking responsibility for ones own actions is so lacking in today's society it is getting to the point where people are afraid to say anything in case someone jumps on you about it'.

 

The fact is that in my view (and it may only be mine...), whatever is said here can be found in a million other sources across the web, so there should be no fear that one measly post here will result in grief.

 

I used the term hijacking loosely, but I have seen a thread or two turn into what resembles a legal argument, where the initial message gets lost after people are finished dissecting it letter by letter.

 

Stay with us Sally - loved the vid and the post...and no, I won't be trying it anytime just yet!

 

 

[djpacro]

National Aerobatic Championships over 20 years ago I was reading a magazine article where Henry Haigh told of one of the manoeuvres that helped him win the world championships not long before. We had similar airplanes, I could use that the next day in the Four Minute Free, no chance to practice but he gave some fairly precise instructions on how to do it. It amazed the judges, first time they had ever seen anything like it - fairly common now in airshows however. Knife edge spin - I wouldn't have believed it was possible before then. I dived to Vne and followed the instructions in the magazine article. It worked perfectly. The wildest ride I have ever experienced. Wings vertical, rotating in pitch around the wingtip. After a few rotations I had a horrible thought - the magazine article didn't say anything about how to stop it!

 

That was in the days before internet forums and FB - at least now I would've had a chance to ask that basic question before I attempted it. But I read a magazine article after which I decided to perform a risky manoeuvre - it loses height very quickly and is somewhat disorientating the first time. I'm sure that some would've advised me not to do it if they knew (I should've tried it first up very high in a practice session not in the heat of competition) but I wanted to surprise and impress the judges.

 

PS: Henry was aged 64 when he won the world championship - a real inspiration to us.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Can't work out what all you blokes are gettin upset about.I practice all the time.....

 

I don't like the "spin recovery method" employed: it needed outside intervention.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I am seriously thinking of removing the post and disappearing into the void

I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE AND WILL SAY IT AGAIN, IF YOU THINK ABOUT TRYING THIS WITHOUT THE APPROPRIATE TRAINING, ENDORSMENTS AND ENDORSED AIRCRAFT, YOU ARE ASKING TO DIE!!! DO NOT DO IT!!!!

 

It is a hell of a lot of fun doing spins, rolls, loops, wingovers and pulling 4 - 5G, so if you want to do it, go to a school that specialises in teaching aerobatics, get the right training, use appropriate aircraft, get endorsed and have fun.

 

Living results in death, lets ban living cause someone might die.

I feel really sorry that you feel down-at-heart about this (it shines through in your post above) and I feel that you should simply leave your post in place. If anyone tries anything you have written in your post and get themselves hurt then if they wouldn't have gotten hurt from that information, they would have probably got themselves hurt doing some other ill-considered, risky thing before long. You simply cannot ever be held responsible for sharing an experience if this sharing leads someone else doing this without any training.

 

Sally, I would absolutely loathe you to remove your initial post about your spinning experience. I don't want to cite the First Amendment (the right to freedom of speech) because that is not relevant. What I do want to emphasise (I have done this before but I will do it again) is that there should be a solid presumption that people who are members of this forum are responsible adults. I can go on youtube, yahoo, google or any number of easily accessible websites and there will be many suggestions (mostly non-aviation) which are potentially harmful or life threatening in a range of ways. Responsible adults all have a measure of self-preservation -call it the the survival instinct if you will- which will hold them back from doing anything overly risky without adequate instruction and training and carefully weighing up the risks and then managing those risks accordingly.

 

I hope that you aren't too upset for too long. Please feel free to continue to contribute to this Forum. And, please do not feel tempted to "disappear into the void"!! The reality is that others are not in any way motivated by malice, I can assure you of this! Even if they lean too far towards assuming that readers will go out and try things written on this forum without any training their real motivation is the safety of pilots and this is always commendable.

 

To sum up, I like your end-quote:

 

Living results in death, lets ban living cause someone might die.

[motzartmerv]

I don't want to cite the First Amendment (the right to freedom of speech) because that is not relevant.

Im glad, because we aren't Americans.. hehe..(just stirring you mate)