Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I can understand why the rules always define a set distance but the reality is that the moment you can no longer see your departure airfield (on a look back over the shoulder, or a clearing turn to check) then you are navigating. If you are Navigating withoutt the training to do so then the outcome will of course depend on your personal chacteristics (some folk seem to have a homing pigeon gene and can generally allways point to home and others are completley clueless) and luck. Luck should always be your last desperate chance in avaiating, not something that is used before training and experience cause you cant guarentee it will be there. Nev covered it well when he said on some days you can easily see 25nm (assuming you are high enough and there isnt a class C or D step above you preventing you getting higher) other days you may struggle to see 5nm. In the later case, without a navex endo it would be foolish to set off 25nm and have to rely on luck to gety back. So, while 25nm is a defined maximum, the real distance you should travel without the appropriate endo is a function of height, and VMC, anything else is just not sensible. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 OK, I found my OLD Ops manual, in regards to the cross country endorsment (per sect 2.07 issue 5 Sep 2001). The requirements at that time were a minimum of 3 hrs dual cross country nav training, and a minimum 2hrs solo nav. How did we jump from 3hrs to 10 hrs, and why? Was it because of the higher performance aircraft? Was it because there were too many fatalities due to nav issues? Have there been less fatalities and/or less airspace violations since the changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 OK, I found my OLD Ops manual, in regards to the cross country endorsment (per sect 2.07 issue 5 Sep 2001).The requirements at that time were a minimum of 3 hrs dual cross country nav training, and a minimum 2hrs solo nav. How did we jump from 3hrs to 10 hrs, and why? Was it because of the higher performance aircraft? Was it because there were too many fatalities due to nav issues? Have there been less fatalities and/or less airspace violations since the changes? The number of people getting lost is staggering, probably CASA solving an obvious problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 The number of people getting lost is staggering, probably CASA solving an obvious problem. The question was, has it solved anything? If they're still getting lost, does that mean if I wait much longer it will be 30 hrs min training? I have found that in this country, management seem to believe if something isn't working, then, we must need more of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 My solo Navex's were all done in calm conditions, with all the checkpoints coming in on the nose within one minute, and got my surprises with cross winds, ambiguous weather forecasts on my own. 10 hours ensures it's more likely to get some challenges during the training period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 My solo Navex's were all done in calm conditions, with all the checkpoints coming in on the nose within one minute, and got my surprises with cross winds, ambiguous weather forecasts on my own. 10 hours ensures it's more likely to get some challenges during the training period. Now that, is a more reasonable explanation. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 You would not be anywhere near your best, even at 10 hours. If you keep current on the required knowledge you will improve with experience ( provided you have the right attitude. IF you think you are already good enough you won't improve) I am not argueing for 10. It seems a lot. You can pack a lot into 7 hours. If you make a standard you make it regardless of hours flown. A minimum is specified. It is just that. A lot would depend on the instructor ( as always) and the area where you are flying and the weather you are exposed to. Being good at navigating a plane is an art. At the end of any flight you should honestly assess the job you did and ask how could it have been done better/ Then you will improve... Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 You would not be anywhere near your best, even at 10 hours. If you keep current on the required knowledge you will improve with experience ( provided you have the right attitude. IF you think you are already good enough you won't improve) I am not argueing for 10. It seems a lot. You can pack a lot into 7 hours. If you make a standard you make it regardless of hours flown. A minimum is specified. It is just that. A lot would depend on the instructor ( as always) and the area where you are flying and the weather you are exposed to. Being good at navigating a plane is an art. At the end of any flight you should honestly assess the job you did and ask how could it have been done better/ Then you will improve... Nev I agree completely in regard to the learning, if you have no desire to learn or improve, you won't. I would generally apply that to all facets of life. Some of us have the desire to continually improve everything we do, others are happy with mediocrity in all that they do. I would disagree that it is an art........it's all science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Nope, IFR navigation is a science. Vfr dead reckoning is deffinalty an art. :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I'm more of a scientist than an artist, but.... You work with forces and facts and dimensions figures symbols and vectors, but it's still an art. Flying is too. It uses science but the application is an art. Perhaps call it a developed form of organisation. What to regard as important, what to think about and what to not be bothered with. Validity and unreliability considerations. etc Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Like working out which town with the railway line running through East-West, and the hill to the south, and the small lake to the south east you are supposed to be over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Or the wind is coming from.... at ... kts because we can see the wheat crop rippling. I always feel SO relieved when I guess that one right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 And if you are not sure of it, You don't use it as a "fix"/ Pinpoint . You try to find something else to CONFIRM it.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I did, read the railway station sign under their verandah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I did, read the railway station sign under their verandah! Wow! So I'm not the only one who carries a little monocular to read road/rail signs? Wow!... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 and with an Instructor....who paid it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Like working out which town with the railway line running through East-West, and the hill to the south, and the small lake to the south east you are supposed to be over. Hang on that lake has another lake close by to the west???? My chart doesn't show that!!!! Pud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 We've been to the same place Pud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Hang on that lake has another lake close by to the west???? My chart doesn't show that!!!!Pud Oh oh... You're not looking at that really really BIG lake are you Pud?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 The one that wasn't there six minutes ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 The one that wasn't there six minutes ago? I dunno... But there's a really really BIG lake West of Pud that he probably doesn't want to try and cross in the Thruster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I dunno... But there's a really really BIG lake West of Pud that he probably doesn't want to try and cross in the Thruster... Come to think of it... We are surrounded by a lake - go in any direction long enough and you'll come to it! Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I always fly to Tasmania by following the beach Pud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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