M61A1 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Just looking for other people ideas and opinions, after some discussion with a work colleague about the 25 NM limit for those us who don't have Nav under our belts. I'm not sure just how much, if at all the nav requirements have changed since I became a member of the AUF around 1996 (I don't have any of the original requirements, Iknow what the current ones are).......so do you think we could push out a bit to maybe 50 or 100NM. Personally, I think it would be difficult to get lost or suffer fuel exhaustion within 100NM, but I'm a low hr pilot. Maybe I'm not representative of other pilots, I dunno, so what do we think and why? I'm not proposing it, just asking if others can see problems or benefits that I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark11 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Id say not wise... if you get sick of flying in circles, I'd just get a NAV qualification asap!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Id say not wise...if you get sick of flying in circles, I'd just get a NAV qualification asap!! I want to know why.......not wise that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 In my opinion do the Nav requirements and you will enjoy Xcountry flying more. Do it properly and you will enjoy how accurate you can fly and by all means use the electonic aids available currently to confirm your accuracy - the result will make you feel more confident and gain more pleasure from the flight. Remember non TSOed nav aids are not a primary nav aides - VFR is still VFR. FrankM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Evan. Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have wondered the same thing... Mostly because there are no other airports within 25 NM of my home one! I always wanted to visit that one airport 27 NM away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark11 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I assume the limit was put in place for learners and therefore should remain in familiar territory so that you will know where you are and can find your way safely back to the airfield. or maybe so you stay within view / radio range of your CFI?? 100NM is a fair way to be just flying with no actual destination in mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batesey Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have wondered the same thing... Mostly because there are no other airports within 25 NM of my home one! I always wanted to visit that one airport 27 NM away! Isn't there something in the regs that state that without the nav endorsement, your takeoff and destination airport must be the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Is the question relating to changing the rules?..Or doing 50nm or 100nm flights without the endo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Isn't there something in the regs that state that without the nav endorsement, your takeoff and destination airport must be the same? No, but consecutive flights of more then 25 miles are NOT compliant. Ie, 25 miles from your departure point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Is the question relating to changing the rules?..Or doing 50nm or 100nm flights without the endo? The question relates to the rules, and whether or not they could be changed without a significant risk increase. Personally, I think yes......but I'm looking for opinions with reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 No, but consecutive flights of more then 25 miles are NOT compliant. Ie, 25 miles from your departure point. In regard to that subject, I was looking at the Ops Manual just prior to posting, it say's A pilot certificate holder may not fly as pilot in command of a recreational aircraft: (a) when a recreational aircraft is flown a distance greater than 25 NM from the point of take off unless: they hold a valid RA-Aus cross-country endorsment. No more, no less, nothing about not landing or returning. perhaps the wording is poor, but I think that this is very open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 You have to remember that this rule is a "one size fits all" scenario. While you may think that it is pretty hard to get lost 50 miles from your airstrip, in some featureless terrain it would be very easy to loose yourself only 50 miles from your home strip. For example central west NSW where you have mile after mile of wheat paddocks and on many summer days visability with dust & haze may be as low as 15 mile, it would be very easy to become goegraphically challenged . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 not if you take a GPS. These rules seem to be a collection of good intentions and random guesses. 25nm takes 30 minutes @ 50 knots, there and back an hour if you don't get lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 not if you take a GPS. The rules do not allow for the use of GPS's, especially non-TSO'd ones. Re the 50 knots - again the rule is "one size fits all" so has to cover aircraft doing up to 130kts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 remember the GFPT for GA limits them to 10nm. You think 25nm is to small. I am quite happy with the 25nm limit. Once you get the Xcountry fine, until then, remember its 25nm in all directions (except up) so there is plenty of country to explore while you are learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 not if you take a GPS. These rules seem to be a collection of good intentions and random guesses. 25nm takes 30 minutes @ 50 knots, there and back an hour if you don't get lost? If you take a nav course you will see the error of this statement. You don't fly on gps alone-the Americans can switch off their satellites, your gps can malfunction, and some other reasons pointed out by a CFI. You always know where you are on the map by dead reconing. Where do you learn this.......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 In regard to that subject, I was looking at the Ops Manual just prior to posting, it say'sA pilot certificate holder may not fly as pilot in command of a recreational aircraft: (a) when a recreational aircraft is flown a distance greater than 25 NM from the point of take off unless: they hold a valid RA-Aus cross-country endorsment. No more, no less, . Accept if you continue to read : Unless a. A RA-Aus Cross country endorsement has been issued;or b. flight training exercises are being conducted under the supervison and control of a CFI Note: Consecutive flights of 25 nautical miles do not comply with this requirement. You are aloud to land at any airfield inside that 25 mile radius from your departure point (original). Providing its not inside CTA of course. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Evan. Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I figured that they had to make some kind of limit that is safe for everyone (as per Mick's comment). 25 NM is a pretty easy number to remember. If you were to fly out close to the edge, turn and fly around the inside of the circumference and then fly home you'd be flying over 200 NM. That sounds a little more exciting than 25 NM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 1962.5 square miles actually.(if my maths are still good) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Evan. Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 That's the area, isn't it Moz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (a) when a recreational aircraft is flown a distance greater than 25 NM from the point of take off unless: they hold a valid RA-Aus cross-country endorsment. No more, no less, nothing about not landing or returning. perhaps the wording is poor, but I think that this is very open to interpretation. I sought clarification of this from the Ops Manager at the stage when I did not have a X-Country endorsement, the answer I received in writing was exactly in line with Motz's post # 17. The reason I sought clarification was that I wanted to land at an airport 15nm from my home field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Accept if you continue to read : Unless a. A RA-Aus Cross country endorsement has been issued;orb. flight training exercises are being conducted under the supervison and control of a CFI Note: Consecutive flights of 25 nautical miles do not comply with this requirement. You are aloud to land at any airfield inside that 25 mile radius from your departure point (original). Providing its not inside CTA of course. cheers Yeah , I did read that, except the note about consecutive flights, where on the website ops manual is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yeah , I did read that, except the note about consecutive flights, where on the website ops manual is that? Section 2.01-2. Top of the page just before Close proximity flying. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 I figured that they had to make some kind of limit that is safe for everyone (as per Mick's comment). 25 NM is a pretty easy number to remember.If you were to fly out close to the edge, turn and fly around the inside of the circumference and then fly home you'd be flying over 200 NM. That sounds a little more exciting than 25 NM! I have quite a few places I can go inside 25NM, but about triple that for 50NM, and truckloads for 100NM, it is my understanding though that part of the Nav is learning about where you can and can't go and the associated communications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Section 2.01-2. Top of the page just before Close proximity flying.Cheers Gotcha.......I was looking at 2.07. 3 (a), apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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