M61A1 Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 M61. What was the control step height where you were? In the vastness of what you could see? Where were the other steps? Class c and e ? Where are the restricted areas? Danger areas? Frequency boundaries? What atmospheric cruise level were you at? What one should you be at? What are the rpt climb and descent profiles into an out of the regionals in the area? Were there any notams current at any of the fields in your area? What about weather? Any current sigmets for turbulence? Any changes predicted? What was the wind strength and direction at your level? Was there a front due in the area soon? Or anytime today? If so was it a convergence front ?There is so much more to navigating then knowing the lay of the land. All of the above is just SOME of what needs to be considered before you even get in the aeroPlane Cheers THIS.......is the sort of answer I'm looking for, rather than the standard, "just go do your nav". That said, I can answer about 95% of the question you asked. Also I usually fly with a current VTC for the area, just in case, as there is a restriced area next to where I've been flying and check notams that morning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 M61. What was the control step height where you were? In the vastness of what you could see? Where were the other steps? Class c and e ? Where are the restricted areas? Danger areas? Frequency boundaries? What atmospheric cruise level were you at? What one should you be at? What are the rpt climb and descent profiles into an out of the regionals in the area? Were there any notams current at any of the fields in your area? What about weather? Any current sigmets for turbulence? Any changes predicted? What was the wind strength and direction at your level? Was there a front due in the area soon? Or anytime today? If so was it a convergence front ?There is so much more to navigating then knowing the lay of the land. All of the above is just SOME of what needs to be considered before you even get in the aeroPlane Cheers I would also recommend that anyone check most if not all of those things, before wheeling it out of the shed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Why the questions on here? What is happening with the instructors out there? Are they too shy to tell you these secrets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Sometimes you can see for ever, but try it when there has been burning off, and there is a lot of smoke around Pilots can get totally lost in training areas that are adjacent to the circuit area when the viz is reduced( but still legal) if there are no prominent feature to lead you to the strip, and you have been doing a period of airwork. C&D turns etc They don't even know which direction to look and could be flying away from it while they do. Nev So so true Nev....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Also I usually fly with a current VTC for the area, just in case That would be handy out there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 What's the min distance from CTA boundary if above the lower step distance at say 3500' ? Name 3 ways you can get area QNH when airborne, What are the minimum requirements for flight above 5000 ft AMSL What is AERIS what can it provide. Whats the min time a restricted area can be activated with notice? If CTR freq advises a managed aircraft that an unverified aircraft is in possible conflict and you know it's you what should you do? What is a fix? If you're 5 nm left off track after 30 mile enroute, what corrective action would you take to be at your planned destination in 2 hrs? just a few more things to add to Motz,s post that you will(should)know before you venture outside the training area unaccompanied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Why the questions on here? What is happening with the instructors out there? Are they too shy to tell you these secrets? No Tubz I think you missed the point. M16 posted about how easy it is to see in all directions from 4000 feet, in a thread where the reason behind the rule is being examined. I wasn't testing him, I was pointing out SOME of the requirements that go into a Nav endorsement. Being able to see for 100 miles and name the places you are looking at is not one of them. I get the impression that some are not understanding why we arent just let loose, hopefully by posting a smidgent of the standard info that would be involved in a flight plan some questions may be answered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I just seems to me that these discussions expose a shortage of information coming from some instructors. I must admit that reading them makes me realise I was very lucky in terms of being given heaps of information as I progressed, particularly in the night classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Ps. M16, I hope you didn't think I was having a shot. Understanding the reasons behind the rules is important, I appreciate you raising the question. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I agree Tubz. But, remember, there isn't even a requirement to learn "landing at unfamiliar airfields" in the syllabus. Students come to schools from a multitude of different backgrounds. Some, like M16, have had lots of exposure, others don't even know what a piston is. There is no one size fits all approach to training. Lots of info comes slowly over time, through discussion both formal and informal. Don't be too rash in judging the standard of instructing because "students' pose questions you feel they should know. For some its a long, slow boat to china and we can't know what stage they are at. cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Hi... It's a really good discussion and I have appreciated the many comments and occasional expert advice from the instructors here. I think MM has really set it out very plainly, however, and that it is now pretty clear that the 25 nm restriction is a reasonable one. I suppose the ultimate decision rest with CASA and I can't see them changing anything real soon. kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I don't believe that it is a big issue. If you are in a coastal situation and there is no problems with restricted prohibited and danger areas, and CTA you could navigate with a shell road map. Where I live there are CTA steps and numerous small aerodromes all around and GA aircraft constantly sail straight through the circuits at circuit height or lower and no doubt they all have their Nav ticket. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 There are circumstances where you can fly beyond the 25mile limit - one of the circumstances are solo nav training flights under authority from your CFI. Convince your CFI that you are fit and proper and you might be accorded permission to fly to the next airport. Just make sure you get permission to come home as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Trouble is Col some of them may get permission. Remember we are talking about student pilots who are yet to fully comprehend, or be tested to prove comprehension of Navigation, Meteorology and Performance & Operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Your solo Nav is at the end of the nav training sequence. By then you are up to speed and the check dual ride should only be a formality. It has a similar role as the first solo flight and to some will be as dramatic as it IS a new experience. It is a once-off and you are not there till you have the ticket. It would be an interesting situation if a student got lost and did make the headlines , on a solo nav exercise..Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 I don't believe that it is a big issue. If you are in a coastal situation and there is no problems with restricted prohibited and danger areas, and CTA you could navigate with a shell road map. Where I live there are CTA steps and numerous small aerodromes all around and GA aircraft constantly sail straight through the circuits at circuit height or lower and no doubt they all have their Nav ticket. Nev Maybe that's why it doesn't seem like a big deal to me, most of my few hours of flying has been in circumstances where working around restricted and CTA steps, amongst other things, so just business as usual, Perhaps I've wrongly assumed that we all learned like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 What I address as " not a big issue" is the need to change the current limitations. You may well have a better than normal appreciation of airspace limitations. The regulating body has to come up with a "one size for all" figure and that is what I am referring to. I feel it gives room to go out and practice manoeuvers and keep current, and build your flying technique with accumulating some solo hours. At this stage most pilots have not even visited any other airfield except their home base, where they have fallen into the trap of flying around a familiar circuit using "local" cues as to where to turn base etc, instead of judging their position/height by reference to the runways. It is hard to realise the variation of skill/knowledge across the range of pupils who want to learn to fly. They all have to be processed safely and come out meeting a standard. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Trouble is Col some of them may get permission. Remember we are talking about student pilots who are yet to fully comprehend, or be tested to prove comprehension of Navigation, Meteorology and Performance & Operations. We are talking about pilots with no XC endo. It is always under the control of the CFI. If the person has all the bits in a row then it shouldn't be a problem. As an aid to that spending a lot of time with the books and passing the theory would make a positive impression with the CFI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 What I address as " not a big issue" is the need to change the current limitations. You may well have a better than normal appreciation of airspace limitations. The regulating body has to come up with a "one size for all" figure and that is what I am referring to. I feel it gives room to go out and practice manoeuvers and keep current, and build your flying technique with accumulating some solo hours. At this stage most pilots have not even visited any other airfield except their home base, where they have fallen into the trap of flying around a familiar circuit using "local" cues as to where to turn base etc, instead of judging their position/height by reference to the runways. It is hard to realise the variation of skill/knowledge across the range of pupils who want to learn to fly. They all have to be processed safely and come out meeting a standard. Nev As I said in previous posts, I'm not looking for change in particular, but discussion and reasons. I find the more detailed answers such as this, and MM's posts more helpful/interesting than the short reply of -"just do your nav". I'm one of those who can apply and understand what I'm doing much better if I understand the reason for it. Anyone who wants me to do something without knowing why is in for a tough time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 We are talking about pilots with no XC endo. It is always under the control of the CFI. If the person has all the bits in a row then it shouldn't be a problem. As an aid to that spending a lot of time with the books and passing the theory would make a positive impression with the CFI. We've just had a case of a departure into fog, and not so long ago an inbound pilot using a non duty runway because that was the one he used the previous week. A wink and a nod just undermines all that the good instructors do to produce safe pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 We've just had a case of a departure into fog, and not so long ago an inbound pilot using a non duty runway because that was the one he used the previous week.A wink and a nod just undermines all that the good instructors do to produce safe pilots. my foot will cause me trouble one day - I wasn't calling for a wink and a nod, rather suggesting engaging some competent decision making into the process. The correct answer to the question "25nm-without-crosscountry-could-this-be-increased-safely" would be - it all depends, but you really need to chat to your CFI to determine if XC safely is really for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 my foot will cause me trouble one day - I wasn't calling for a wink and a nod, rather suggesting engaging some competent decision making into the process.The correct answer to the question "25nm-without-crosscountry-could-this-be-increased-safely" would be - it all depends, but you really need to chat to your CFI to determine if XC safely is really for you. No, it does not 'all depends'. Your CFI will authorise your solo nav when you have (1) passed your met/nav, and, (2) demonstrated to the CFI, during the course of several dual flights, that you are capable of conducting a solo navex. Only when you have passed the final dual check flight, and the paperwork completed and sent to RAAus - are you able to exercise your nav endorsement. Yes, there are arguements for and against this 25nm distance, but, given the GA limit is 10nm, or the extremity of your training area - RAAus pilots are probably best advised to shut up and enjoy the advantage. happy days, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 ...RAAus pilots are probably best advised to shut up and enjoy the advantage. Aye Potters, wise words. I had a ball flitting around within the 25nm confines for a few months before doing the cross country endo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 What was the other one doing lox? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 mould.... remember?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now