Would a Recreational Certificate make it easy to get a PPL?

[ayavner]

Don't let it get to you Solomon - its the same reason why people in a prestigious uni might look down at TAFE, or really any situation going back to the beginning of civilisation where a practical alternative to traditional methods gains popularity. Maybe they perceive that there is some exclusivity they bought/earned their way into that others thru different means attained. Why would someone rather push their Ford than drive a Holden (or vice versa)?

 

To answer the original intent of your post, yes RAAus hours count towards GA. Is it likely that between a field of candidates that someone's RAAus hours are going to carry significant weight or push someone over the line? Probably not. But that is OK, I realistically don't think anyone would be going for a right-hand airliner seat in the hopes their RAAus time is going to put them on the short list. Its something you do for yourself to stay sharp, and in that light it should be a positive thing to note that you "keep your hand in" no matter what it takes - make sense? Or am I rambling? :-)

 

 

[horsefeathers]

I've been reading the regs about this in relation to my daughter's flying, and so far, in relation to the 200 hour CPL requirement for 100 hours PIC, it seems you need to do the flying in a "recognised aircraft". And try as I may, I can't determine if RAA Group A 3 axis aircraft fit as a defined "recognised aircraft" - you can do the hours in lots of different types (even gyros and motorised gliders), but RAA aircraft are not specifically mentioned, as far as I can determine.

 

There is a thread on the wrinkly date website that mentions letters from CASA that "interpret" the regs to allow this, but as for a straight forward statement such as "RAA 3 axis aircraft are regarded as a recognised aircraft", I cant find it.

 

Can some one point me to the ACTUAL reg that allows RAA hours to count towards a CPL.

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Gerry. Call the licensing department. I think the guys name is Myles..

 

I had to jump through hoops last year when I got a CPL. I rang alarm bells when my application form stated 3000 hours +. They wanted to know how I got those hours in 7 years.

 

Anyway, long story short, I had to furnish them with log book evidence that I had 100 hours in VH registered aeroplanes, and the other 100 could be done in anything (RAA included).

 

They were alos very particular about the other requirments, navs and instrument time etc.

 

If not sure, email Myles, he is the guy that issue the licences. You will hear lots of BS on any forum and I agree the rules are very murky.

 

Cheers and good luck to your daughter.

 

 

[djpacro]

Reg 5.111 and subsequent.

 

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2012C00622/Html/Volume_2#_Toc296935607

 

Somewhere I have an email from CASA which summarizes the limitations wrt hours.

 

Hours are one thing, certification of competency to the syllabus is another.

 

 

[68volksy]

New CASA draft regs automatically give a new CASA licence to holder of an RAA certificate. Who knows when/if the new rules will appear.

Not sure that's quite right? My understanding is that the new regs will introduce the Recreational Pilot Licence which effectively replaces the GFPT under the GA system. You can hold the new RPL with either a full medical or the drivers licence medical. It would appear that to this licence a pilot can then add endorsements such as cross country, controlled airspace etc. It's very similar to the RA-Aus Pilot Certificate but allows for up to 1500kg aircraft and access to controlled airspace.

 

I'm told the RA-Aus Pilot Certificate will remain with all current restrictions.

 

To convert from RA-Aus Pilot Certificate to Recreational Pilot Licence I would imagine the same criteria would apply that applies to conversion from RA-Aus to GA at the moment. i.e. demonstrating competence in all aspects of the licence and the necessary instrument time.

 

 

[Guest Error404]

Not quite apparently, the conversion from Raa to RPL has been promised to be quite simple and endorsement based. Figures of 5 hours to a 172 have been thrown around for ages now, so per aircraft, to the point that in the end in terms of hours and cost you'd have been better off getting a PPL.

 

 

[coljones]

Not sure that's quite right? My understanding is that the new regs will introduce the Recreational Pilot Licence which effectively replaces the GFPT under the GA system. You can hold the new RPL with either a full medical or the drivers licence medical. It would appear that to this licence a pilot can then add endorsements such as cross country, controlled airspace etc. It's very similar to the RA-Aus Pilot Certificate but allows for up to 1500kg aircraft and access to controlled airspace.I'm told the RA-Aus Pilot Certificate will remain with all current restrictions.

 

To convert from RA-Aus Pilot Certificate to Recreational Pilot Licence I would imagine the same criteria would apply that applies to conversion from RA-Aus to GA at the moment. i.e. demonstrating competence in all aspects of the licence and the necessary instrument time.

From the draft regs, but they have not been agreed by anyone and need to pass through parliament.

It would seem that the current government has a very full legislative program and Abbott will spend the 5 years after the election repealing everything.

 

Pretend that nothing will change real soon now and, therefore, ones peptic ulcer will benefit.

 

"61.425 Grant of recreational pilot licences in recognition of

 

pilot certificates issued by certain organisations

 

(1) This regulation applies to an applicant for a recreational pilot

 

licence if:

 

(a) the applicant holds a pilot certificate, granted by a

 

recreational aviation administration organisation that

 

administers activities involving aircraft of a particular

 

category; and

 

(b) in accordance with {provisions to be drafted in

 

Parts 103/149}, the certificate permits the holder to act as

 

the pilot in command of an aircraft of that category while

 

the aircraft is carrying a passenger.

 

(2) For subregulation 61.420 (2), the applicant is taken to have

 

passed the aeronautical knowledge examination and flight test

 

for the licence and the aircraft category rating for that category

 

of aircraft.

 

(3) The applicant is also eligible for the grant of:

 

(a) the aircraft category rating for each category of aircraft in

 

which the person is permitted by the certificate to act as

 

pilot in command; and

 

(b) the aircraft class rating for each class of aircraft in which

 

the person is permitted by the certificate to act as pilot in

 

command; and

 

© the design feature endorsement for each design feature

 

possessed by an aircraft in which the applicant is

 

permitted by the certificate to act as pilot in command."

 

 

[68volksy]

Thanks for copying those details in. My comments were following discussions with various CASA staff involved with the regs update so i may have missed something.

 

I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the end result of the consultation process was to be entirely sure but with CASA's determination to limit the operations of RA-Aus then the above would make perfect sense.

 

 

[solomon]

To convert from RA-Aus Pilot Certificate to Recreational Pilot Licence I would imagine the same criteria would apply that applies to conversion from RA-Aus to GA at the moment.

Wait, what's the diffrence between a RA-Aus Pilots Certificate and RPL? I thought they meant the same thing.

 

 

[68volksy]

No they're not the same thing although I can understand any confusion! The RPL is a CASA issued licence that will effectively replace the GFPT. The Recreational Pilots Certificate is a certificate issued by RA-Aus. The certificate allows you to fly RA-Aus registered aircraft under all the rules of the RA-Aus legislation. The RPL basically allows flight of all single engine GA registered aircraft up to 1500kg maximum weight without having to undergo a medical. Once you have a RPL you can then add endorsements like cross country, controlled airspace etc. CASA are still debating how the conversion process from RA-Aus to RPL will take place however it does appear there will be some very big concessions granted.

 

The two will be very similar with the main benefit of RPL being access to the larger aircraft and controlled airspace.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

RPL allows you to fly GA aircraft, you could finish your plane as a Experimental Amateur Built

 

 

[dazza 38]

SAAA are heading towards being a RAAO. They will be issueing LAPL (Light Aircraft Pilot licences which is the new name for RPL). They will have a set up like the RAA including their own schools, instructors & training syllabus. Go and check out the SAAA web site for yourselves. The information is under RAAO.

 

 

[solomon]

The two will be very similar with the main benefit of RPL being access to the larger aircraft and controlled airspace.

ok thanks!

 

 

[68volksy]

From the draft regs, but they have not been agreed by anyone and need to pass through parliament.It would seem that the current government has a very full legislative program and Abbott will spend the 5 years after the election repealing everything.

Pretend that nothing will change real soon now and, therefore, ones peptic ulcer will benefit.

 

"61.425 Grant of recreational pilot licences in recognition of

 

pilot certificates issued by certain organisations

 

(1) This regulation applies to an applicant for a recreational pilot

 

licence if:

 

(a) the applicant holds a pilot certificate, granted by a

 

recreational aviation administration organisation that

 

administers activities involving aircraft of a particular

 

category; and

 

(b) in accordance with {provisions to be drafted in

 

Parts 103/149}, the certificate permits the holder to act as

 

the pilot in command of an aircraft of that category while

 

the aircraft is carrying a passenger.

 

(2) For subregulation 61.420 (2), the applicant is taken to have

 

passed the aeronautical knowledge examination and flight test

 

for the licence and the aircraft category rating for that category

 

of aircraft.

 

(3) The applicant is also eligible for the grant of:

 

(a) the aircraft category rating for each category of aircraft in

 

which the person is permitted by the certificate to act as

 

pilot in command; and

 

(b) the aircraft class rating for each class of aircraft in which

 

the person is permitted by the certificate to act as pilot in

 

command; and

 

© the design feature endorsement for each design feature

 

possessed by an aircraft in which the applicant is

 

permitted by the certificate to act as pilot in command."

Just an update on this. Currently appears that you still have to pass a flight review in order to have a valid RPL. Basically the above means you've passed the theory component and are ok to fly that category and class of aircraft (ie airplane single engine) however you will not be taken to have passed a flight review. Sounds like it will leave it to the individual flying instructor to determine whether you pass the flight review. There looks to be some guidance coming out for instructors regarding this also.

 

 

[coljones]

Re CASR Part 61 – Flight crew licensing

 

it was heard today "From discussion with CASA manager at a meeting a little over two weeks ago, we understand that their review of comments received on the November 2011 draft has been completed and that they are close to finalising a final version of the regulations."

 

Ah, the glacier is moving.

 

Volksy68 - thanks for the update on the flight review requirement.

 

 

 

[horsefeathers]

Gerry. Call the licensing department. I think the guys name is Myles..I had to jump through hoops last year when I got a CPL. I rang alarm bells when my application form stated 3000 hours +. They wanted to know how I got those hours in 7 years.

 

Anyway, long story short, I had to furnish them with log book evidence that I had 100 hours in VH registered aeroplanes, and the other 100 could be done in anything (RAA included).

 

They were alos very particular about the other requirments, navs and instrument time etc.

 

If not sure, email Myles, he is the guy that issue the licences. You will hear lots of BS on any forum and I agree the rules are very murky.

 

Cheers and good luck to your daughter.

Well, after 3 weeks, I got a response from Casa licensing re RAA hours counting towards CPL licence

 

Note, this information applies ONLY to the 200 hour CPL.

 

The response from CASA, in blue follows:

 

Flight as PIC of a 3 axis RAAus registered aircraft may count towards CAR 5.115 (a) PIC time.

 

An RAAus aircraft is not a registered or recognised aircraft (see definitions) therefore RAAs time may not be credited for 5.115 (b) © or (d)

 

Regards .....

 

In other words, you CAN put 100 hours of RAA PIC 3 - axis aircraft time towards your CPL licence. (Reg 5.115 - 1(a))

 

You CANT put any RAA time towards 1(b), 1©, or 1(d) as an RAA aircraft is not a "recognised or registered" aeroplane.

 

Hope this clears up some of the confusion about this.

 

++ REG 5.115 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

5.115 Aeronautical experience for subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (ii): persons other than helicopter pilots

 

(1) For the purposes of subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (ii), the aeronautical experience of a person who is not covered by regulation 5.113 or 5.114 must consist of:

 

(a) at least 100 hours as pilot in command; and

 

(b) at least 100 hours of flight time in a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane; and

 

© at least 20 hours of cross‑country flight time as pilot in command of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane; and

 

(d) at least 10 hours of instrument flight time in a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.

 

.....

 

++ REG 5.115 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

[horsefeathers]

Just to (somewhat) clarify the status of RAA registered planes wrt CPL licencing requirements:

 

This interpretation still, unfortunately, does NOT clarify the status of an RAA aircraft as to whether it is a registered plane or not......

 

More info from CASA licencing branch:

 

See CAR Interpretations Page33

 

recognised aeroplane means an aeroplane:

 

(a) that is on the register of aircraft kept by a Contracting State; or

 

(b) that is operated by the Defence Force of Australia or of a Contracting State.

 

recognised flight time means flight time that is:

 

(a) in the case of flight time in a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane — flown by the holder of:

 

(i) an aeroplane pilot licence; or (NOT Pilot CERTIFICATE)

 

(ii) a student pilot licence; or

 

(iii) an overseas pilot licence that authorises the holder to fly aeroplanes; or

 

(iv) a pilot qualification issued by the Defence Force of Australia, or of a Contracting State, that authorises the holder to fly aeroplanes

 

 

[Mazda]

The student pilot age im GA will be 15 years, RPL needs to be 16.

 

RPL holders will need to do a medical - either a Class 2 from a DAME, or a recreational medical (drivers licence medical aviation) from a GP. Those with a recreational medical can only take one pax, those with a Class 2 can take more than one pax. 25 hour minimum, can fly within 25 miles, 1500kg MTOW single piston, day VFR only.

 

The recreational nav endorsement needs 5 hours command xc including a 100nm flight. It can be done OCTA, or add on controlled airspace (transit) or controlled aerodrome (operating in and out). Still 1500kg day vfr single piston only.

 

PPL will require controlled airspace (no OCTA PPLs), a solo nav of 150nm and 2 hours IF. A PPL can go on to night, multi, IFR and aircraft over 1500kg. Integrated PPL will be offered with a 35 hour minimum. Non integrated PPL is the current 40 hour min. 17 year age minimum.

 

CPL will be as it is now, 150 or 200 hours with the usual command requirement, 10 hours IF, 300nm solo nav, 18 years.