camo645 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Hey Guys! So my most dreaded lesson happened on the weekend, it went something like this: Instructor : Alright Cam we are going to get you out into the training area and do some Stalls and Steep turns. Camo : *sheepishly laughs* really.. so soon?! At this point all I had heard was "stalls". Now I don't know what it is about flying an aircraft to the point where the wings aren't actually creating any lift that scares me. Maybe its the whole thing about tasting my breakfast twice, or the other thing about falling to a certain death ... Or so I had thought! So we got out to the Training Area after a rickety climb out on a (bloody) hot day! We did a nice easy 360 to make sure we weren't going to hit anyone. The instructor wanted me to practice picking up the wing in the case of a wing dropping, He would roll the aircraft to the left and I would mash the right rudder pedal, He would roll right I would stomp on the left. That gave me a great feel for how to 'pick up' the wing in case of a wing dropping during the stall. So after our little session on practising how not to enter a spin we tried a couple clean stalls. He Demo'd the first one and to my surprise it wasn't as terrorising as I had thought only 30 minutes before! Pull the power back and try to keep the desired altitude by applying more back pressure.. soon enough you have reached the point where the stall warning buzzer is sounding and just for fun you pull a little more!! what happened next really surprised me : The plane gently flopped over into a nose down position so we applied power and put the aircraft into a slight descent to pick up a bit of speed! And that was that.. 1 stall , 1 recovery and 1 aircraft that can be used again! On another note : I sat my Radio Exam on Saturday. I scored 90% , Done and Dusted! Now to move onto the Pre Solo Air Leg. Thanks for Reading guys! Camo 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidg Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Hey there. I remember be absolutely terrified at the thought of going out to do stalls for the first time (I was still scared of turbulence back then too). I wish my instructor had told me that a stall is a big fat nothing – not scary at all. But, my friend, have you done a wing drop stall yet?? They scare the hell out of me! You go from being nose high to UPSIDE DOWN pointing at the ground in the blink of an eye (at least this is what it is like in a C172)….I HATE doing those. I just hate the feeling of not having control for what is really only a few seconds. In my last BFR I remember my instructor whooping it up with his hands in the air like he was riding a roller coaster – cheeky bugger. Wing drop stalls was the only lesson that I ever had to repeat. The urge to try and pick the wing up with ailerons is so powerful because it just seems instinctual but if you do that you can make it worse! I have a BFR coming up soon and that is one of the things I will have to do and I will be nervous the whole time until we get it out of the way. Good luck with the rest of your lessons J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Camo: And by the time you get there, your first solo should equally be an anti-climax...Until you step out of the plane and realise what you have just accomplished. Congrats on your big step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Sounds like fun. You will do more stalls before you go solo (presumedly). Ive never been a huge fan of picking up a dropped wing with rudder, but YOUR instructor knows best. Enjoy mate :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Ive never been a huge fan of picking up a dropped wing with rudder, but YOUR instructor knows best. Agree about doing what your instructor says, but just curious about how you pick up a dropped wing Motz? rgmwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The way it was explained to me was that you're not picking up the wing you're stopping the yaw with rudder. A consequence of doing that is the dropped wing will come up because it is now not stalled any more. Andy, what are your thoughts on that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 You can fly a stalled plane on power and keep the wings level with rudder but if you overdo it you may flick quite quick. you shouldn't do it for long as the engine will get too hot. Never get too relaxed with stalls but neither should you be frightened. The unstalling commences when you move the stick forward, long before the speed increases. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
503 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I was told its the increase in speed with using the rudder that picked up the wing,eg hitting right rudder makes left wing faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 remember stall is a function of AoA. nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Agree about doing what your instructor says, but just curious about how you pick up a dropped wing Motz?rgmwa I dont want to seem like we are going against old mates instructor, but IMHO we dont need to pick up a dropped wing with rudder, but rather (as thirsty said) stop the yaw with rudder. The issue is the wing is stalled. If you unstall the wing the problem goes away and you can fly the aeroplane out of the upset attitude. Picking up a stalled wing is a little dangerous because from that condition its very easy to stall the other wing, which because of the high AofA already could be a lot more abrubt and viloent. The main thing we should be aware of is that we arent using aileron at this point. Thats the main objective, not so much picking up the wing with rudder, but NOT picking it up with aileron. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camo645 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 I was told its the increase in speed with using the rudder that picked up the wing,eg hitting right rudder makes left wing faster That's what I was told as well. Camo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Thanks Motz. Unstalling the wing and correcting the yaw with rudder and not aileron makes sense, and I can see why using rudder to `pick up' a stalled wing could be dangerous. Maybe the common expression of `picking up the wing with rudder' is just poor terminology, because it doesn't really describe the correct recovery actions to get the wing flying again and the plane level. rgmwa 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvairkr Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 It was always drummed into me the importance of flying coordinated so you don't get into the wing drop situation to start with.I was taught to enter a spin in properly rigged aircraft you need two things stall and yaw. It was hammered into me your life depends on your angle of attack so know your stall stick position and always fly coordinated in turns . jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Congrats on the radio exam! Good job on the stalls lesson too, I also found it anticlimactic. Almost everyone I talk to says the same thing, wonder why it is there is such a build up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I did my first stalls (and spins and spirals) in a Tomahawk, that gets the sphincter going! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 I dont want to seem like we are going against old mates instructor, but IMHO we dont need to pick up a dropped wing with rudder, but rather (as thirsty said) stop the yaw with rudder. The issue is the wing is stalled. If you unstall the wing the problem goes away and you can fly the aeroplane out of the upset attitude. Picking up a stalled wing is a little dangerous because from that condition its very easy to stall the other wing, which because of the high AofA already could be a lot more abrubt and viloent. The main thing we should be aware of is that we arent using aileron at this point. Thats the main objective, not so much picking up the wing with rudder, but NOT picking it up with aileron. Merv is correct. It's very easy to overdo the rudder bit - and end up spinning in the opposite direction. Have also found that stalling in turns can create some fun manoeuvres if the pilot tries to bring the wings level using rudder,(a natural reaction because the aircraft isn't wings level), with or ahead of elevator input. Break the stall before all else. In deliberate nose high 'unusual attitude' training - breaking the stall requires a lot of elevator input and the wing levelling should be secondary in importance. happy days, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Picking up the dropped wing, stopping the yaw - same thing different colour. Rather than confuse poor newbies just use both terms, after all, they are both correct! I was taught that applying opposite rudder speeds up the downgoing wing and thus increases its lift stopping the drop. Still, what would I know?, I fly a Jabiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Jab7252. Its not the same thing at all. And statements like " opposite rudder speeds up the downgoing wing and thus increases its lift stopping the drop" only adds to the confusion as its not correct when talking about a stalled wing. The aeroplane doesn't stall because it gets too slow. Please revisit the theory if this doesn't make sense to you. :)..Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 But, the rudder input is applied AFTER the nose comes down and the wing is NO LONGER stalled? Man, I am sooooo dumb. Thanks for the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 If the wing is no longer stalled , why are you using rudder to pick up the wing? Aileron is what we use to control roll, not rudder...Im not getting smart, this is the student thread so we need to make sure info is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Oh No - another spin! I'm not accusing you of getting smart, I just wish I was smart because this rudder/aileron stalls thing is just (apparently) so complex. I've been flying since the early 80s as a private pilot and have always thought I understood it. Regardless of how it is described, when I do stalls and the wing drops (which is rare) I'll bring it up with opposite rudder, and if somebody claims it's due to magnetism, then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Thats fine. But if you dont want to get jumped on by instructors then please be careful what you say in the students thread. I dont care so much in the other threads, but incorrect info (even from pilots who should know better) will; be jumped on.. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boingk Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Might be late to the party but do you guys remember a lesson on secondary effects of controls? The secondary effect of the rudder is roll, as the dihedral in an aircraft wing responds to yaw inputs from the rudder by producing roll. You are using this secondary effect to help scratch your way out of the stall, in addition to the yaw helping (in a limited way) restore proper airflow. Try some competetive online flight simulators (both Aces High and Rise of Flight are great!) and you really get the hang of it. Both are free to download. If you need a joystick I highly recommend the Logitech 'Extreme 3D Pro', has a flightstick, heaps of buttons, hatswitch (moves field of vision) plus throttle and yaw input for rudder. $50 posted from eBay. Cheers - boingk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 The secondary effect of the rudder is roll, as the dihedral in an aircraft wing responds to yaw inputs from the rudder by producing roll. You are using this secondary effect to help scratch your way out of the stall, in addition to the yaw helping (in a limited way) restore proper airflow. Hey Boink. Do aircraft that don't have any dihedral still have 'secondary effects'?. How does Yawing an aeroplane help you "scratch' out of a stall? Id prefer to get the hang of it in a real aeroplane before I offer advice to students :) Cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Did my BFR last weekend, instructor got me to do stalls in steep turns. I was really concerned about this but doing them put my mind at rest and gave me a lot more confidence in my aircraft and my flying. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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