boingk Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I also read the article in Sport Pilot and shuddered - why can't this guy get the hang of it after 40+ hours? I was solo smack bang on 10 hours, and that was a GA C150 not a Thruster or Gazelle! I know everyone is different but without regular and meaningful lessons you are not going to get anywhere. 40 hours over 18 months is less than an hour a week, barely 30 minutes a week in fact. I would *highly* recommend anyone after a certificate save money until they can afford and dedicate several hours a week for perhaps 2 to 4 months. You will pick up everything a lot quicker, be fresher in the aircraft and most likely get the same instructor... as turnover in this industry really is a factor at training level. I did 70 hours in 12 months and 3 hours my first day - I would regard that as much more appropriate for a learner. I understand money and time are an issue... but, yes, you can save. I sure did! Not everything can be here and now. My positive learning experience is also why I rate Goulburn Flight Training Centre so highly - not once was I 'dikked around' or made feel uncomfortable. On a few occasions in my year with them there was a wait for an aircraft due to tight or mismanaged bookings but I really didn't have to wait much at all. The crew there were friendly, positive, and gave good feedback from my flights. They were also 'fair but stern' in their teaching in that if I wanted to push my flying they let me, but not before I got the prerequisites down pat. In the same vein, they also did not push me if I wanted to practise something. I would also highly recommend doing everything in the same aircraft. As a learner there is nothing worse than inconsistency... and although the instructor may be the different the plane should always remain the same. Doesn't matter if its a Thruster, Gazelle, C150 or C172; there is a reason qualified pilots periodically get check flights for different aircraft types! - boingk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 You expect more out of a flying instructor though, its not like they are dealing wife beaters every night. Why expect more from a flying instructor? Be practical about just how much training they have in how to teach. Becoming a school teacher takes several years, becoming a university lecturer can take a few more years, and how much time is devoted to teaching instructors to teach? I know there is a "Principle Methods of Instruction" course, but just how far does it go towards developing the skills for teaching? And that is without even considering that some have very different motives for wanting to teach, and are more than happy to look at a student as a number of hours in their own logbook towards their next employment opportunity. Across 3 states and over about 15 years, I have had one awful instructor, a couple of low average ones, and the rest were outstanding. The absolute worst one was a former SAAF Mirage pilot - his attitude and the way he heaped abuse on students was terrible. I have had brand new Grade 3s who were really helpful and committed to teaching, as well as CFIs with over 20000 hours who had so much wisdom to share about the finer points. Just because someone is an instructor doesn't mean they will automatically be better or worse than the average bloke on the street. I've had a good run of instructors, the person mentioned at the start of this thread has had a bad run. It happens. And as far as coppers, plenty of the ones who never deal with wife beaters have bad attitudes, and some of those who deal with wife beaters still manage to treat people respectfully every day. You will find it in all people, across all jobs. More people need to share their good experiences and recommend good instructors to their friends, and spend less time just bagging the ones that didn't work out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Escadrille Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 It may have something to do with low hours, an amateur environment and pressure from the instructors peer group. I have recently been flying gliders again after many years. I tried two local clubs and the lack of consistency of technique ( in expectations) and procedures along with in- cockpit abuse and belittling of the student generally (particularly if you have other aviation experience)was similar to this poor fellows experiences. It doesn't look good for flying , particularly with the mess RA Aus is currently in. After all the Instructors are the face of Rec flying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 Wow, this really turned into an instructor bashing session hey... Anyway...Does anyone know the guy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Well you need a belt now and then Bandit12 in #27 is probably more on the money - we tend to talk about the bad experiences, but I've certainly been lucky enough to have some great instructors who didn't just teach me how to fly but instilled behaviour patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 It may have something to do with low hours, an amateur environment and pressure from the instructors peer group. I have recently been flying gliders again after many years. I tried two local clubs and the lack of consistency of technique ( in expectations) and procedures along with in- cockpit abuse and belittling of the student generally (particularly if you have other aviation experience)was similar to this poor fellows experiences. It doesn't look good for flying , particularly with the mess RA Aus is currently in. After all the Instructors are the face of Rec flying.... I reckon the last sentence here is right on the mark. And, if RAAus is suffering from too much 'inconsistency' within their instructors - then, maybe they should do more about working with us. I've recently taken my Board member to task over this. No standardisation anywhere in the system, rarely see anyone from Canberra, or our Board member for that matter. Mind you, it's not much better in GA......CASA only check the schools once in a blue moon, and then it's a 'compliance' approach rather than a 'how can we help the industry approach.' happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I know that all the instructors are qualified to more or lesser degrees, what makes them a good or bad instructor is how well he can motivate his student, he is a teacher in the end and that's what he needs to do, some older people take longer to teach new things that's just nature and I think some instructors don't have the patience or the ablities to teach older people, I think nearly any instructor can teach a 18 year old to fly but I think it's it's a completly different thing to teach older people. They have life experiences and career in more than likely completly different fields of work than flying and probably much more stressful and I think the problem arises with these people that need to be respected by the instructor and not treated like 18 yr olds that have not anywhere near the life and work experiences that they have. The instructors, I think need to know who they like to train, if they don't like traing older people because they can frustrate them then stick to the young one's, I know that if you get frustrated and cranky with a older student they will either tell you off or just won't come back to the school and that's no good for anyone and that seems to me to be what has happened to the guy from the magazine. Being respected and being taught is the key..not being talked too like a naughty school boy or girl..and making it FUN..that's the ticket IMO David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Wow, this really turned into an instructor bashing session hey... Anyway...Does anyone know the guy? These things happen, its called the Internet. Is there a professional association for RAA flight instructors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Why expect more from a flying instructor? I know why I did, I expected because I was paying their salary they would want me to continue being a student. Its not good business sense to fcuk around your customers. Most flying schools are a small business, more students equals better wages. Not quiet the same as a bad experience with a copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 These things happen, its called the Internet. really?. Thankyou for the lesson. Thread drift I believe its called. Perhaps you can start another thread about how to be a good instructor, i asked a simple question. Thats all..:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 If the student was on this forum he would probably know that flight instructors and flying schools do have issues and would know what was going on long before it became a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 Thanks for your input..Invaluable as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Well for my part, certainly no "instructor bashing" intended, though I can see it has become a bit of a vent point for specific problems people have had with instructors, please don't internalise that Motz cuz i am sure you don't fit any of those! I think some people have nailed it on the head - it might be just as well that not everyone who is an "instructor" is really a gifted "teacher". And that does take time. And yes, we older students probably are a bit of a handful also for the reasons mentioned above. We do expect to see a linear progress through a circumstance, and if such is not forthcoming, we want to quickly identify the hold up and work on that, in order to make progress - after all, time is money, and it isn't daddy's money we're spending here! I think, if we go back to the original point of this thread, and its this person's letter and feelings of frustration on display, and I would hope that someone in RAAus read it and took it to heart and maybe a little introspection is in order. Notwithstanding the inevitable outliers on both sides of the fence (instructor and student) i do think it is reasonable to start with a syllabus and specific steps and ways to measure progress. In my situation, I've had to grab the reins a little in that respect, but pretty much all on track now (not that weather is helping...). Another possibility is - do the instructors feel empowered? Someone else nailed it on the head in reference to the wide range of standards and expectations, and how the goal posts always seem to move when changing instructors due to that. But could that just be an issue of empowerment? ie, in our society as it stands today, if I am an instructor, I can see it being very tempting wanting to feel that my student flies as well as I do or better, before taking the responsibility of sending them out. But that isn't the standard required, and could take years to meet as hard as it is just to get time/money/weather to line up for a lesson. a Forum First - i am going to have to disagree with you there boingk, I don't think we can assume he "didn't get it" with 40 hours over 18 months, and I don't think it is fair to say don't bother unless you can dedicate significant time/money/resources to getting it done. It is, after all, "Recreational" aviation... We might be able to glean that the guy could have participated a bit more in his own salvation, but again perhaps that is what he was trying to do by changing schools/instructors. I really want to see this have some sort of happy ending, I sure hope he "outs" himself here or gets in touch with you Moz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 Its a very thankless job, the money is non existant or crap at best, its often dangerous and the responsibilities are massive when you send teenagers, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, grandparents off solo in an aeroplane to mix it with other kids, parents etc. Most RAA instructors do it for the love, and I agree not all are natural teachers but thats got nothing to do with whats happening here IMHO. Empathy and non structred training have nothing to do with teaching ability and everything to do with attitude and respect. I can sniff an unhappy student out a mile away and if you take the job seriously you should 'addapt' whats happening to make them happy..Its really that simple. Its funny but the easiest things to get right are often what most schools stuff up on. Bookings, clear definition of goals and objectives etc. They are very easy to accomodate properly but unfortunately seem to be where most 'complaints' stem from. Even if your cockpit teaching technique is a bit scratchy, your student can still progress well and 'enjoy' the experience if the system is accommodating to their individual needs. Like I said before, I am not perfect either, by any means, but I do draw the line at 'cranky' instructors. Ive flown with them myself and would not tolerate it if i was any of you. My biggest bit of advice is this, if your not happy, approach the chief and express your concerns. If its not fixed then go somewhere else. Its really that simple. 6 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts