motzartmerv Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Hi, reading this months mag i was appauled by one of the letters. A student explaining how hard he has tried to get a cert and much he feels he has been 'dikked' around. This sort of thing gets my goat like you wouldnt believe. If anyone knows who he is (or you are him/her) please PM me. I would like to talk to him. No-ones dreams should be stolen by apathy or neglect. Cheers 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XP503 Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I think it sounded like he was his own worst enemy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth lacey Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 seems to be the norm in this industry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I don't know him/her, but when I read the letter I thought how many times I could easily have written that myself! I feel like i am on a good trajectory now, and to those whose care I am currently in - THANK YOU! But yes, I empathise 100% with the tone of that letter and the moving goal posts, different rules depending on whom you ask, changing instructors and the associated backtracking, all of it. I started this in 2011, likewise lured in by the light-n-breezy tone of the ads and websites that made it seem within reach for the average bloke with a ton of real-life commitments. I thought, I am sure much like this guy, "great, i'll give this a go and if i like it I can move on to GA etc etc". Turns out it probably would have been quicker and cheaper if I had just started GA, as there does seem to be a less lackadaisical approach. Especially if I had known that 18 months into it i would still be chomping at the bit to go solo... and no i dont think that is due to any intrinsic lack of skill or confidence (other than natural atrophy encountered by 2 month stretches between lessons, changing instructors, etc). Anyway, I get it and I hope that someone like you Motz can rein this poor fella back in and help him achieve his dreams. For me it is a passion and worth every bit of frustration I might encounter along the way. I never wanted or expected it to be a walk in the park, but once in awhile you do think "geez just throw me a bone here!" But i can say this, short of catastrophic financial meltdown or incapacitation, I. WILL. NOT. GIVE. UP. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Yep its a pity theres not just 1 standard instead of each instructor having there own THEORIES and Standards, not to metnion some sort of routine or progression to stick to. Lets say ALL instuctors start you :flying and feeling the plane, then next work on instruments,followed by manouvers ect..?,So a new instructor can say OK your up to landings,we will work on that today. just a thought! I don't know im not an instructor. here 1 of my training/horror flights with a so called CFI My 3rd lesson was local and after I was put in the plane with very little to no briefing on flight charicteristics,radio calls etc.. I was told to Taxi to runway @# and then Take off. I back tracked then made a 180 to line up the Jabi and applied brakes(as shown by previous instructor) and to my shock and horror my hand was smacked off the brake (yes smacked clean off the brake lever) and I was grawled at for stopping on the gravel runway as this damages his A/C...Sheesh no need to wack me,frighned the life out of me ,not to mention making me feel shamed...next thing we were in the air and to tell you the truth I don,t remember much of the flight as I felt very sheepish now ..I can say I never flew with HIM again and will not recomend him thats for sure... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Yes it is a real shame and i certainly dont profess to be perfect or have all the answers, but I think if at the very least your instructor genuinely cares about your "progress' as well as your well being and long-gevity, then you are at least starting off on the right foot. Ive heard too many horror stories and frankly im over it. I flew with a guy recently who has 150 hours. 45 in command and NO BLOODY CERTIFICATE...WTF!!!!!... The flight I did with him I called a pre lic test and organized his test. A navy pilot (Pc9 etc) called me yesterday and asked how his flying might be converted. He had been told he would need to get a GFPT, then do navs because his military flying doesn't carry over. He's a pc9 captain with an instrument rating for christ sake!!!!. GFPT are you serious??..Anyway, he's coming here to get 'converted' to dark side. If YOU are the guy from the mag, please get in touch..... 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_richo Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Flyerme.. I dont want to run into your CFI friend, can you PM his details so I can avoid :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 A lot of that sounds outrageous. It's YOUR money. The least a school can do is make sure all your instructors talk the same talk. Confusion you don't need.( EXTRA confusion) I can't reconcile finding out what sequence you are doing during the taxiing, with good practice. Would you go to a doctor who hadn't looked at your file? Pre and post flight briefing should be the norm. You file is entered ,you see it and know what your next sequence will be. Most of us know nothing is perfect and you sometimes learn how to fly something despite the instructor you managed to be allocated , but there should be a line drawn as to what is not OK. You shouldn't be ridiculed threatened demeaned. If your instructor is trying to show you what a $hithot driver he/she is and not concentrate on you and your progress, go elsewhere. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Flyerme.. I dont want to run into your CFI friend, can you PM his details so I can avoid :) Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 not sure if its appropriate but if Im going to post the negative I feel its only fair to post the positive. a couple of great schools I would recommend as I found them very pleasent and understanding and definately not just in it to take your money (I assure you of that ) is: CFI Jim Cuthill - Boxwood Victoria ,Falconhawk private airfield, weight shift /trike and 3 axis in a Thruster. The best value yet to be matched at $150hr starting at take off (NOT engine start and run up ,ground school etc) And Murray Bridge Recreational Pilots academy Pallamana airfield Murray Bridge S.A. James Hubbert (Spelling?) well recomended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 A lot of that sounds outrageous. It's YOUR money. The least a school can do is make sure all your instructors talk the same talk. Confusion you don't need.( EXTRA confusion)I can't reconcile finding out what sequence you are doing during the taxiing, with good practice. Would you go to a doctor who hadn't looked at your file? Pre and post flight briefing should be the norm. You file is entered ,you see it and know what your next sequence will be. Most of us know nothing is perfect and you sometimes learn how to fly something despite the instructor you managed to be allocated , but there should be a line drawn as to what is not OK. You shouldn't be ridiculed threatened demeaned. If your instructor is trying to show you what a $hithot driver he/she is and not concentrate on you and your progress, go elsewhere. Nev At one stage I was subjected to: Two different aircraft ("he's still out, Oh well we might as well use this one") with different handling characteristics, three instructors with different preflight, line up and climb out methods, two different downwind checks and one "what are you doing that for", three different circuit radio procedures, one base turn based on ground objects, one based on aircraft relationship top runway, one couldn't care less, and two methods of descent and losing any excess height. On top of that there was no training syllabus, so no sure way to prepare for a lesson, which on the day could be anything from a duplication of the last lesson to a fly around the training area. Combine this with weekly lessons and there was a surprise per minute; a lot of my money was wasted. What's happening with the proposed Instructors forum? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 deja vu.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 It won't be any good if you only have instructors in it. From what is written above they (some) are (part of) the problem. Can they be all of the solution?. Another way of looking at it. Are teachers the experts in the particular subject(s) they teach? Their expertise is passing on enough of the subject to fulfill the syllabus expectations.. Their skill is the art of teaching...instructors should be good at the art of teaching also, and that involves many skills as well as sufficient knowledge of flying and aircraft and rules etc. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 What's happening with the proposed Instructors forum? As stated, it is tied in with many other things that are coming and being developed and none are being considered in isolation...as stated and as you have read: http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/instructors-forum.58490/page-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 It won't be any good if you only have instructors in it. From what is written above they (some) are (part of) the problem. Can they be all of the solution?.Another way of looking at it. Are teachers the experts in the particular subject(s) they teach? Their expertise is passing on enough of the subject to fulfill the syllabus expectations.. Their skill is the art of teaching...instructors should be good at the art of teaching also, and that involves many skills as well as sufficient knowledge of flying and aircraft and rules etc. Nev My thoughts are that they can hammer each other and learn from each other as instructing peers - they get a different view to the recipients who can be complete dropkicks as pilots but still tell a convincing story again the instructor (not that my earlier posts was a personal admission). There is nothing to stop them running a poll or starting a thread out in the open forums to get general conversation going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I too encountered a multiplicity of techniques and preferences with the instrucors I had. Fortunately, I never had an instructor physically assault me.. Fortunate for the instructors, that is. If I had ever been hit, the offender would have gotten a smack in the chops when we were safely on the ground. There is absolutely no need nor justification to hit a student at any time. I also read the letter with some dismay and sympathy. The first TIF I ever had, put me off learning to fly for 20 years. The instructor didn't hit me, but he screamed at me non-stop the whole flight. I was terrified. At the end of the TIF, he lined the aircraft up with the runway, made it obvious that he had taken his hands off the controls and said "You're going to land it". That was after a half hour of him screaming and raving at me and I was completely shell-shocked. I just replied "No I'm bloody not" and just let go of the controls. He was truly The Instructor from Hell. There are great instrucors, not so great instrucors and downright A-holes out there. It's unfortunate that we could not 'name and shame' the dropkicks without the risk of libel suits as I think exposing the dross would soon drum them out of business. Yes, I know that would be open to abuse and vendettas, but I believe the minimal risk of an instructor being unjustifiably targetted would be outweighed by improving the overall standards of instruction. But I also think that in addition to a 'name and shame' list, there should also be a 'hall of fame' list too. I've got a couple of names that I'd put in the latter list but I won't mention them here so Damien and Neil, your secret is safe with me...oops. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperplace Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Yep its a pity theres not just 1 standard instead of each instructor having there own THEORIES and Standards, not to metnion some sort of routine or progression to stick to.Lets say ALL instuctors start you :flying and feeling the plane, then next work on instruments,followed by manouvers ect..?,So a new instructor can say OK your up to landings,we will work on that today. just a thought! I don't know im not an instructor. here 1 of my training/horror flights with a so called CFI My 3rd lesson was local and after I was put in the plane with very little to no briefing on flight charicteristics,radio calls etc.. I was told to Taxi to runway @# and then Take off. I back tracked then made a 180 to line up the Jabi and applied brakes(as shown by previous instructor) and to my shock and horror my hand was smacked off the brake (yes smacked clean off the brake lever) and I was grawled at for stopping on the gravel runway as this damages his A/C...Sheesh no need to wack me,frighned the life out of me ,not to mention making me feel shamed...next thing we were in the air and to tell you the truth I don,t remember much of the flight as I felt very sheepish now ..I can say I never flew with HIM again and will not recomend him thats for sure... pm me too if you like for the same reason, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av8vfr Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Not just RAAus that this applies. I had done the RPPL (=GFPT) in the 90s in approx the minimum hrs, then moved interstate for work. I wanted to take some work mates for a local joy flight and showed up at one of the local schools to get checked out. After about 3hrs of dual / solo check flights and no sign off in sight, I went to another school at the same location. 3 circuits check ride (=30min) and the plane was mine.. Apparently, the fact my licence was low hours was more important with the first school than the fact I could actually command the damn thing! Probably worse off nowadays with regards to insurance, liability, etc.. (the good old days???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 My training (PPL) was all with my Aero Club owned school. I had a number of instructors but the syllabus was laid out in the training manual supplied and while there was variation in the styles from the different instructors my progress didn't suffer until one day I got a Cat C instructor and we went out to the low flying area to do some precautionary landing practice. He started going off after I stuffed a couple of things up, then I got worse as I got no encouragement just loud criticism. I hate being yelled at when I am trying my best, & wasn't going to continue being abused for anyone & applied full power & climbed. The response was "Where the hell do you think you are going". I just said "home" & continued. He did not try to take control ( I would have let him) & I called ATC & got entry & landing instructions & landed. No more words were said. I went immediately to the CFI who luckily was in his office & laid a formal written complaint. The instructor was sacked. He is no longer with this world and I think largely he was his own worst enemy. No-one should have to put up with poor standards or abuse. You are paying these guys wages for goodness sake. Make your voice heard and formally complain. If nothing happens go up the ladder even as far as to RAA or the director of CASA ( even the media) if necessary. We need to get rid of this stuff and putting up with it sends the message that it's OK. IT IS NOT OK! It is very bad for our sport. Those who have good experiences will tell a few mates. Those who have a bad experience will tell everyone, sometimes in a letter to the editor of a magazine that some 10,000 people will read. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 the bad experiences with flying instructors are pretty common though. I don't know why though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Like bad experiences with coppers - most people have had one and tell everyone about it, but rarely tell the good stories. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 You expect more out of a flying instructor though, its not like they are dealing wife beaters every night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbm Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 It's a hard topic, all humans do things differently, but I would guess it's up to the CFI to maintain standards of training and consistancy. I went through about 5 instructors and a Jabiru 170, 160 and 120. I found it good to learn different things from each instructor, and they recommended once I got close to circuits that I stick to the one aircraft, which I did. The instructor I was the most scared of was the CFI, but that was probably just a authority thing. I didn't initially like the 1st instructor I had after my TIF, but by the end he was my favourate and I did about 80% of my training with him. The CFI turned out to be an awesome bloke to - did about 15% with him. I would guess some schools are very casual - "Have a good drive to the airfield? Today you'll be flying with *** in the ****". If you're finding this a problem, have a chat to the CFI and ask if you can stick to one instructor and plane. A 30 minute wait for a plane to arrive so you don't have to fly in a different one is time on the ground well spent. Bring along a radio and listen in on the action. :) Cheers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperplace Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 You expect more out of a flying instructor though, its not like they are dealing wife beaters every night. yes, agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfGnome Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 The more I read things like these comments (and that letter), the luckier I realise I was. When I was looking for a school - knowing absolutely nothing about the process - I purposely chose a one-person school where the owner/CFI/instructor/dishwasher was well experienced from ATPL down. Ok, with hindsight there were the occasional shortcomings, but because it was always the same plane and the same instructor, I got consistency. It wasn't until after I got my license that I started to discover the variations between CFIs while doing checkflights at other locations. At least by then I had some modicum of confidence and could accept the different styles and different content, but if I'd had to cope with that in the early days when your brain feels like it's gunna explode; nup, I'm not sure I would have made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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