Ballpoint 246niner Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 An early left turn clearance does not exempt a pilot from adherence to CAR's- not below 500" agl- it may happen before the upwind threshold as I've done many times in the Sav at Archerfield, but ATC cannot authorise flight operations outside the CAR's unless in a declared emergency. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I would think that the early would mean before the normal position relative to the runway and not an altitude clearance? An early turn on say a missed approach could be disastrous even if you WERE above 500 agl as (as you know) the missed approach point will take into account the terrain and only provide a minimal clearance on that track and not some 'early turn' track.. I dunno howard, im just having a crack...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Ballpoint 246 niner (and Motz) win the prize! An early turn only allows you to commence the turn prior to the upwind end of the runway, you are still required to reach 500 feet prior to commencing the turn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Aww shucks, thanks HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 In regard to the original question and the resulting answer regarding CAR 166A, I can think of another reason where I can turn prior to 500 feet ! Any guesses? PS: Actually I can think of a few, but one stands out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Only for the imminent avoidence of collision,emergency( as mentioned), or to remain VMC if cleared for a visual departure.... HH you have got me digging now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 In regard to the original question and the resulting answer regarding CAR 166A, I can think of another reason where I can turn prior to 500 feet !Any guesses? PS: Actually I can think of a few, but one stands out! On a private property ,with the owners permission and the appropriate low level endorsement,,,,,,maybe,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 You pretty much have it! CAR 157 4(a) 4 (a) through stress of weather or any other unavoidable cause it is essential that a lower height be maintained; An example would be departing from an airport located in a valley, there may be fog up ahead and an early turn may be required. There are others in CAR 157, SAR, designated low flying, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 The only thing I could think of would be to remain VFR. Or to avoid a collision. The VFR one is curley because you could argue that you should have looked up before you took off:).. But im sure the regs would have to allow for an early turn to avoid the soup just the same as they permit low level flying ONLY to avoid IMC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Bugga...too slow.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 And too old! Who said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 As an instructor in RA this is probably beyond the requirements, but as my tag says -GA taught me discipline, and whilst some can be overdone, I think all pilots, especially those advising others need to hold themselves to high standards even up to GA standard. We get lot's of converts so you need to be able to play ball at their level and then having gained respect, enlighten them to the difference in lighter than GA and/ or high drag types. Thanks for the quick quiz and hopefully those watching are learning in the process... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 On a private property ,with the owners permission and the appropriate low level endorsement,,,,,,maybe,,, MM- changed your photo? what happened to the Eurofox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 The important thing about aviation (any type of aviation), is to never stop learning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I did most of my training at a airfield with a runway that points out to sea, I was taught to begin the turn on to crosswind early (only on this runway) so as not to fly too far out to sea. So really a question staying within glide distance. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Lol..Yes I reckon I know the strip..:?).. While you are technically breaking the regs there, its a trade off isnt it. I personally would try to get 500 as quick as I could and then turn, however I know most do turn early there. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Lol..Yes I reckon I know the strip..:?).. While you are technically breaking the regs there, its a trade off isnt it. I personally would try to get 500 as quick as I could and then turn, however I know most do turn early there. :) Yeah mainly an issue in the Gazelle with 2 fatties on board lol 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I did most of my training at a airfield with a runway that points out to sea, I was taught to begin the turn on to crosswind early (only on this runway) so as not to fly too far out to sea. So really a question staying within glide distance. Thoughts? Now this one is a tricky one but there is an answer.... Firstly still no turn below 500 AGL so no snoopy doll yet... waaaaittt. continue upwind leg to 500 but skew your heading slightly to right( for a std LH cct) so if you have to turn back due to an EF you are in a better position to go straight to base leg for a reciprocal landing without having to do a full 180 turn. Now of course you can't do this where CTA or parallell runways are in operation, but it's all about safety margins. BUT the rule remains in force- no turns below 500AGL, see posts above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 BUT the rule remains in force- no turns below 500AGL, see posts above... yes agreed, I wasn't challenging the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planet47 Posted May 14, 2013 Author Share Posted May 14, 2013 Watch out for your neck octave! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 MM- changed your photo? what happened to the Eurofox? The Eurofox is a renter,,,,the sexy red and white baby is mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Not attacking anyone personally here, but it's a shame that these reg;s don't seem to be included in any training. Yes there is an "Air Law" exam, but it only really scratches the surface, to the point where a lot of pilots think that they are the only rules applicable. I would recommend going onto the CASA website and having a good look throughout. Also have a look at the AIP which basically explains the rules in a practical sense. More for RAA to tidy up. This is possibly a hangover from the days when non GA kept below 300 feet, but now RA aircraft use the same airspace as GA for a start, have much the same characteristics as the light aircraft end, and are used on cross-country trips whether suitable or not. The questions on here really underline this training shortfall time and time again, and when you are flying round and see some of the circuit entries, and hear radio calls out of "Biggles flies to France", it sends a cold shiver up your back. Better to be worried about your neck after a pasting on here than to pay the ultimate price of not knowing what you don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Watch out for your neck octave! Very constructive comment P47. There are some on here that take YOUR safety very seriously. Some have even devoted their lives to it, but nobody has bitten you or anyone else yet. You have had the rules explained to you very clearly. You have had practical examples given to you. Your question has been answered. Octave gave a specific example of the grey areas involved with this reg, and nobody 'bit' him. Please refrain from your 'wrinkley fruit' comments. Your original question was a good and valid one. It may have highlighted a shortfall in your training however as any LP endorsed pilot should have been taught the correct procedure, and not have to end up asking the question in a public forum. However that is not your fault, but it does cause concern for other instructors and concerned pilots as to whats being taught. Thank you for your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 I know this doesn't apply to most rec flying but seeing as there are a few GA'ers in here, what about if ATC clear you for an 'early left turn'? What height can you turn at?Beware trick question! Yes - 500agl in Australia, but in practice - the 'earliness' of the turn away from the runway might depend on whether the ATC instruction indicated a degree of urgency. If I was instructed to make an immediate, as opposed to an early left turn, all bets are off and I'd be over into a turn NOW. Flying a 206 out of Tucson, Phoenix, Flagstaff and Grand Canyon a few years back and the towers had most lighties entering the runway from an intermediate taxiway, and then making a 300ft left turn for departure. Fitted one in between each 'heavy' lining up. Anyway ....another time and place. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 CAR 166A (4) The rule in paragraph (2) (f) does not apply if a change to the track is necessary to avoid the terrain. Couldn't find anything in regards to whether or not water could be considered "terrain". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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