Tailwheel Skyfox CA25 too easy?

[Denny Fiedler]

Hi

 

My plan is to eventually learn basic aerobatics in a Chipmunk and/or Decathlon but

 

considering how expensive the training is at YPJT I think I'll have to first learn how to

 

fly a RAAUS taildragger and then switch to GA later.

 

Could someone with more experience please advise if the CA25 is a challenging

 

enough aircraft to learn the basics.

 

The reason I ask is that I spend some hours flying the nosewheel Gazelle

 

and back then thought I was a good pilot but after switching to a Texan I realised

 

the Gazelle was just so easy to handle (and slow) it gave me a false idea of my skills.

 

PS: RA vs GA is not an issue, I'm flying both and got about 80h as GA PIC and 50h as RA PIC

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

DF, there are some differences of opinion as to the degree of difficulties involved with handling a Skyfox. There have been many scared off by them , and there has been a reasonable trail of damage left over the years. I personally have flown many different taildraggers, and I would rate the Skyfox as one which is probably fine in experienced hands, but because they are lively they can be a trap waiting to happen to the uninitiated. What I am trying to say is that they are a real taildragger, and adequet skills are required.

 

To be fair, many of the runway excursions have been the results of problems associated with the bungees used for shock absorption, so if you plan to strap one on , make sure that aspect has already been sorted ............Maj...

 

 

[DWF]

Denny.

 

I owned and flew a Skyfox tail-dragger for a number of years and have about 300 hours on type.

 

I have also flown a number of Gazelles.

 

The two are completely different animals near and on the ground.

 

If you can't fly a Gazelle you can't fly anything (IMHO). On the other hand the Skyfox tail-dragger (I think they were called an Impala) is very directionally unstable on the ground - you have to anticipate and correct any deviation almost before it starts - wait a second or two too long and you will be describing circles on the runway. That said, I enjoyed the challenges it presented and it gave a great sense of accomplishment to complete a flight (and more particularly a take-off and landing) without incident. And don't relax while taxiing - you haven't completed the flight until the aircraft is tied down. So yes, the CA25 is challenging enough - if you can handle one safely you will be a real tail-dragger pilot!

 

A good tailwheel endorsement aircraft is a Cessna 170. Unfortunately there are not too many available for that purpose now. The C170 is easy to control if handled properly but will still bite if you do the wrong thing.

 

Good Luck.

 

Don't let me put you off. The CA25 is a fun aircraft to fly once you master it.

 

My old CA25 aircraft is now RA-Aus registered and flying at Bindoon.

 

DWF

 

 

[Denny Fiedler]

Thanks guys!

 

I'll give it a try next R&R and see how I handle the challenge.

 

 

[facthunter]

I agree with all the above. The Gazelle is so easy to fly it makes anyone think they can fly. It's transformed into something totally different with a tailwheel requiring CARE when on the ground. Nev

 

 

[Riley]

Denny.I owned and flew a Skyfox tail-dragger for a number of years and have about 300 hours on type.

I have also flown a number of Gazelles.

 

The two are completely different animals near and on the ground.

 

If you can't fly a Gazelle you can't fly anything (IMHO). On the other hand the Skyfox tail-dragger (I think they were called an Impala) is very directionally unstable on the ground - you have to anticipate and correct any deviation almost before it starts - wait a second or two too long and you will be describing circles on the runway. That said, I enjoyed the challenges it presented and it gave a great sense of accomplishment to complete a flight (and more particularly a take-off and landing) without incident. And don't relax while taxiing - you haven't completed the flight until the aircraft is tied down. So yes, the CA25 is challenging enough - if you can handle one safely you will be a real tail-dragger pilot!

 

A good tailwheel endorsement aircraft is a Cessna 170. Unfortunately there are not too many available for that purpose now. The C170 is easy to control if handled properly but will still bite if you do the wrong thing.

 

Good Luck.

 

Don't let me put you off. The CA25 is a fun aircraft to fly once you master it.

 

My old CA25 aircraft is now RA-Aus registered and flying at Bindoon.

 

DWF

Sadly DWF, after an impeccable total rebuild (storm damage whilst tied down) about 12 years ago, your old Skyfox has again bit the dust. Fell unto the strip fm about 20' on landing a couple of months ago at Bindoon (questionable wind shear blamed) with a student doing tail wheel conversion w/ an instructor. Fortunately no injuries but the little CA25 suffered un-economically repairable damage. No insurance and wreck subsequently bought by a scavenger so it's unlikely it will see the air again. Great little aircraft but, to repeat what everybody knows, it would quickly remind you on touch down if you weren't pedalling quick enough.

 

 

[Gforce]

Having just bought a Highlander, and not currently current I'm planning on doing some hours on a lightwing as I feel that should get me comfortable on the highlander. Whats peoples thoughts on the LW as a good trainer ? I would of done it but the Rego has not yet come though from RAA. So its a waiting game.

 

 

[Hongie]

why not train on your highlander mate?

 

 

[Gforce]

why not train on your highlander mate?

I called the RAA about this and was told as Im not the builder... Im not allowed to do this ! Is this not correct ?

 

 

[dazza 38]

I called the RAA about this and was told as Im not the builder... Im not allowed to do this ! Is this not correct ?

Yes, AFAIK.

 

 

[JimG]

So just for interests sake, how does handling the skyfox compare to a J3 cub...?

 

JimG

 

 

[Gforce]

Negative ! I called and spoke to them again and they confirmed 100% that as I'm not the builder. I'm not allowed to do any training, nor type endorsement in the my Highlander. How silly is THAT ! Surely, its the safest way to get me comfortable in my own plane.

 

 

[Denny Fiedler]

Sadly DWF, after an impeccable total rebuild (storm damage whilst tied down) about 12 years ago, your old Skyfox has again bit the dust. Fell unto the strip fm about 20' on landing a couple of months ago at Bindoon (questionable wind shear blamed) with a student doing tail wheel conversion w/ an instructor. Fortunately no injuries but the little CA25 suffered un-economically repairable damage. No insurance and wreck subsequently bought by a scavenger so it's unlikely it will see the air again. Great little aircraft but, to repeat what everybody knows, it would quickly remind you on touch down if you weren't pedalling quick enough.

Just got an email from Jack (topfun) confirming that the Skyfox is no longer available. I sent out a booking request just before you posted this info.

 

Any idea where else (Perth +300km) I could learn to fly a taildragger without spending 400+$ per hour at Jandakot?

 

 

[metalman]

I've got a bit of TW time from a wide range of aircraft( wide in different behaviours) I've got about thirty hours in my Skyfox/Kitfox type and totally love it, I've had a few learning moments but I guess as long as I keep learning I won't be going backwards down the runway :-)

 

There is nothing like the feeling of a perfect wheeler ,do it in a short coupled taildragger,,,,even better,,,,,do it in a short coupled taildragger with a nasty reputation and you'll be grinning like an idiot every time you think about the little bugger!

 

I was chatting with a guy who had about 300 hours in his C185 , he asked another 185 pilot how long before he could relax a bit on final,,,,the answer NEVER, the moment you do the bastard will bite you real hard, taildraggers are great fun and super challenging ,even the well behaved ones, so go for it you will be a better pilot no matter what type you end up in!

 

 

[facthunter]

JimG the Cub is more predictable. Probably considered a basic simple T/D. I've flown the 2 seat Auster archer which is similar and not difficult at all. Tailwheels are not stable directionally, ever, as the wheels are ahead of the CofG so they can all make you look silly. Nev

 

 

[Hongie]

Negative ! I called and spoke to them again and they confirmed 100% that as I'm not the builder. I'm not allowed to do any training, nor type endorsement in the my Highlander. How silly is THAT ! Surely, its the safest way to get me comfortable in my own plane.

That's rediculous... Does that include BFRs? Does anyone know if vh experimentals are allowed to be used for training? I know they are allowed in the US, and our regs sometimes mirror theirs.

 

 

[Hongie]

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s262ap.html

 

Section 2g

 

Obviously raaus are different, but why?

 

 

[metalman]

That's rediculous... Does that include BFRs? Does anyone know if vh experimentals are allowed to be used for training? I know they are allowed in the US, and our regs sometimes mirror theirs.

Only if your the builder!

 

 

[Hongie]

Do ou regs supersede casa? Advisory circular 21.4 (2) says

 

17 FLIGHT REQUIREMENTS

 

17.1 Since experimental amateur-built aircraft are not required to conform with an ICAO Annex 8 design standard, there is no formal requirement for a flight manual. However, useful information should be available to the pilot. Design standards such as FAR 23 indicate the sort of information. The General Aviation Manufacturer's Association (GAMA) format flight manual is recommended.

 

17.2 Flight training will be permitted under certain circumstances, ie type endorsement training and training given in the aircraft to its owner

 

The next section goes onto talk about Maintainence and only then differentiates between an owner and an owner/builder. Where is our resident lawyer?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Certified RAAus trainers are usually 24,25 and some 55 regos. All the rest are for private operations only. A certified trainer must be serviced and signed off by a Level 2... only. A CFI or other instructor can't instruct in a non-regoed trainer, even to do a check out or BFR.......and to answer a prev question, yes most Lightwings make great tail wheel trainers, they don't ......And to answer a prev question, yes Lightwings make great trainers, they won't try and make a fool of you each landing and don't require a lot of rudder work to stay on the runway.They were originally designed as trainer ...Maj...

 

 

[ave8rr]

Certified RAAus trainers are usually 24,25 and some 55 regos. All the rest are for private operations only. A certified trainer must be serviced and signed off by a Level 2... only. A CFI or other instructor can't instruct in a non-regoed trainer, even to do a check out or BFR.......and to answer a prev question, yes most Lightwings make great tail wheel trainers, they don't ......And to answer a prev question, yes Lightwings make great trainers, they won't try and make a fool of you each landing and don't require a lot of rudder work to stay on the runway.They were originally designed as trainers........Maj...

If doing a GA AFR it MUST be done in the aircraft that you have done most flying in over the past two years. I have to do mine in the RV9A. Can't understand why RAAus HAS to be different! It's like large rego numbers still required under left wing. Gone every where else.

Cheers

 

 

[aro]

If doing a GA AFR it MUST be done in the aircraft that you have done most flying in over the past two years.

Must, unless the person conducting the review approves otherwise... so it's actually pretty much at the instructors discretion.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Must, unless the person conducting the review approves otherwise... so it's actually pretty much at the instructors discretion.

CASA CAP on AFR's

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:OLDASSET::svPath=/download/CAAPs/ops/,svFileName=5_81_1.pdf

 

12. What aircraft should I use?

 

12.1 The CARs clearly state that a flight review must be conducted in the aircraft in which the pilot had flown the most flight time during the last ten flights undertaken. In most circumstances this would probably represent the flying activities that the pilot generally conducts.

 

Should be the SAME for RAAus!

 

Cheers

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

It does make sense to me, however many aircraft types just are not by design, suitable, or equipped for dual instructional purposes. It would then be unsafe for an instructor to attempt to do so in them. And what about if the aircraft is single place anyway ?.......generally as I see it , as with GA, it's ultimatly the instructors call, as it should be..................Maj...

 

 

[metalman]

I would think an instructor would make the call taking into account currency , maybe theory and attitude around the field if going dual wasn't viable. For me I like to do something different , an endorsement or like last time a D class entry exit into C class , cost a bit but it was a good day out. Next time I'd like to do a formation endo or a float endo.