Departing circuit downwind?

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Another question for you guys that I can't find an answer too anywhere:

 

when departing a class g aerodrome downwind, do you have to stay at circuit altitude on downwind until clear of the zone (3nm) or can you continue to climb out on the downwind leg?

 

Rich

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I don't know where it is written but I have always just kept on climbing when departing on any leg. Just have to keep and eye and ear out for any inbound traffic.

 

 

[Fishla]

You just keep climbing immediately as there is no rule against it.

 

Basically you need to be aware that inbound traffic might be overflying at circuit height + 500.

 

So if you're on downwind and climbing fast, watch out.

 

See CAAP 166-1(3) Operations in the vicinity of non-controlled aerodromes.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Basically you need to be aware that inbound traffic might be overflying at circuit height + 500.

My instructor had me leveling off until past the downwind threshold....probably an extra safety precaution for student pilots

 

 

[Pearo]

My instructor had me leveling off until past the downwind threshold....probably an extra safety precaution for student pilots

This is what I would do, in fact I would probably remain at circuit height until I have passed the point where you turn base. Even thought there is no explicit rule, I personally would not climb out on downwind, you are just asking for a separation issue with incoming aircraft.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Hey Pearo, what would you do then if departing crossword or overhead?

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

This is what I would do, in fact I would probably remain at circuit height until I have passed the point where you turn base. Even though there is no explicit rule, I personally would not climb out on downwind, you are just asking for a separation issue with incoming aircraft.

Why? Aircraft would either be joining from your left (crosswind), joining behind you (downwind), ahead of you (straight in), or beneath you in unusual case of a base join.

Level flight in the circuit is something that is taught to students to give them reference points in the circuit. I personally would never maintain a level segment in a circuit unless I was doing circuit practice.

 

 

[Ozfergie]

I am doing RPL at Camden and certainly when the tower is operational you need ATC clearance to exceed circuit height on the downwind leg - "Depart on climb" (I think) is the clearance - and will only be given if the area is free of traffic - same applies to the crosswind leg.

 

 

[Fishla]

I am doing RPL at Camden and certainly when the tower is operational you need ATC clearance to exceed circuit height on the downwind leg - "Depart on climb" (I think) is the clearance - and will only be given if the area is free of traffic - same applies to the crosswind leg.

We are only talking about class G here. No clearances at all required.

 

 

[Ozfergie]

Yes - sorry - I just read the post properly - really interesting, as I hope to be starting to do more flying out of Cessnock in the next few weeks, so I best get up to speed !

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

We are only talking about class G here. No clearances at all required

But if it's what camden controlled airspace is doing it, wouldn't this be a good example to follow in class g?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well for my ten cents worth if I am departing on downwind I will just keep climbing, as HH said incoming traffic won't be just overhead the downwind leg. (Unless of course they are using the opposing runway because of a calm wind ect in which case you should have just taken off towards your destination.)

 

In reality though I rarely depart on downwind as i generally will takeoff towards my destination as long as the tailwind isn't silly and obviously taking into account other traffic.

 

 

[djpacro]

But if it's what camden controlled airspace is doing it, wouldn't this be a good example to follow in class g?

Moorabbin Class D airport, on the other hand, requires a climb on departure to maximise separation from inbound traffic.

[frank marriott]

If you are departing class G, I can see no reason to be on a downwind leg - I.e. Get above circuit traffic

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

All good points..thanks. I can take this to my instructor and see what he has to say :)

 

 

[CAV0K]

Why? Aircraft would either be joining from your left (crosswind), joining behind you (downwind), ahead of you (straight in), or beneath you in unusual case of a base join.Level flight in the circuit is something that is taught to students to give them reference points in the circuit. I personally would never maintain a level segment in a circuit unless I was doing circuit practice.

You are correct assuming the aircraft was already at circuit height but what if an aircraft was overflying the active side (Circuit height + 500ft) to come in for a mid-field crosswind join? I think its a smart idea waiting until late downwind to depart/climb. Personally I would try and depart upwind where possible.

 

 

[Nightmare]

I'm quoting the Visual Flight Rules Guide by CASA 3.36 "Departing the Circuit Area" "Aircraft should depart the aerodrome circuit by extending one of the standard circuit legs or climbing to depart overhead." It further goes on to say that you should not fly contrary to the circuit direction unless the aircraft is well outside the circuit area. Also be aware of other aircraft and local procedures.

 

 

[Nico13]

You are correct assuming the aircraft was already at circuit height but what if an aircraft was overflying the active side (Circuit height + 500ft) to come in for a mid-field crosswind join? I think its a smart idea waiting until late downwind to depart/climb. Personally I would try and depart upwind where possible.

This would have been my question as I'm only three lessons in to my training each return to circuit has been over the top +500 for a mid field cross wind join.

 

So that would be a candidate for a coming together on a down wind climb if everyone wasn't making the right calls and fully alert.

 

And I quote my instructors words of an example where one guy was a bit dyslexic when it came to entering the local traffic frequency and thinking he was doing the right thing with his calls, but no one could hear him and when confronted on the deck re his apparent lack of communications the error was discovered.

 

With all good intentions things can still go pear shaped, good old Murphy.

 

Stay alert.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Your procedure for joining a circuit starts at 10nm with your inbound call on the CTAF for that aerodrome. At 3nm and within sight of the field you should be at least 500 ft above circuit height, bearing in mind that some aerodromes have high power aircraft circuit heights of 1500ft, so you would need to be 500ft above that. If you know the runway in use, make your intentions known on the radio, eg: "Caboolture traffic, lightwing 1234, overflying from the west joining crosswind runway 12, Caboolture". With practice and experience, comes fluency and competency.

 

May I suggest that when you are alone, run scenarios in your head, and verbalize the calls that you would have to make at each stage of the flight. That technique helped me in the early days. I would take an imaginary trip from one field to the other, saying all the radio broadcasts that I would have to make starting from the Taxi call, to the exited the runway and taxi calls at the other aerodrome. You will make heaps of mistakes, but better to get your head around these calls on the ground than in the air. If you are comfortable and confident with the radio, your instructor will be very happy and you will be well on the way to gaining your certificate.

 

 

[Nightmare]

You are correct assuming the aircraft was already at circuit height but what if an aircraft was overflying the active side (Circuit height + 500ft) to come in for a mid-field crosswind join? I think its a smart idea waiting until late downwind to depart/climb. Personally I would try and depart upwind where possible.

That's good, but in some instances, such as nav exercises, some training recommends overflying the field for timing reasons. Also some aerodrome local procedures recommend overflying the field to depart, but you would have to be listening to the radio. If there was someone inbound, yes, I would be extending one of the circuit legs and departing it that way.

[Parkway]

Assuming you are departing in the general direction of the downwind leg, you could extend crosswind and climb above circuit height plus 500, but then someone could be a bit higher than circuit height plus 500 at that pointing still descending... Basically however you depart you just need to keep an ear and an eye out for any other traffic, right? From my limited experience G class operations are pretty dynamic and you need to adjust what you do for the situation.

 

 

[Nico13]

Your procedure for joining a circuit starts at 10nm with your inbound call on the CTAF for that aerodrome. At 3nm and within sight of the field you should be at least 500 ft above circuit height, bearing in mind that some aerodromes have high power aircraft circuit heights of 1500ft, so you would need to be 500ft above that. If you know the runway in use, make your intentions known on the radio, eg: "Caboolture traffic, lightwing 1234, overflying from the west joining crosswind runway 12, Caboolture". With practice and experience, comes fluency and competency.May I suggest that when you are alone, run scenarios in your head, and verbalize the calls that you would have to make at each stage of the flight. That technique helped me in the early days. I would take an imaginary trip from one field to the other, saying all the radio broadcasts that I would have to make starting from the Taxi call, to the exited the runway and taxi calls at the other aerodrome. You will make heaps of mistakes, but better to get your head around these calls on the ground than in the air. If you are comfortable and confident with the radio, your instructor will be very happy and you will be well on the way to gaining your certificate.

Thanks Nightmare,

 

Yes these are the procedures we are using from the 10 NM out.

 

And yes the practice calls in the head is also my approach to the point that my instructor commented last flight, my third only that he was very happy with my calls.

 

I told him they had been going through my head for the last two weeks.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Even thought there is no explicit rule, I personally would not climb out on downwind

There is by default, because you are in the circuit, and have to maintain circuit height, and if everyone does that you won't have the separation issues.

Where the airfield has specific requirements you follow those.

 

Nightmare's #17 confirms this using the words "extending one of the standard circuit legs", so, for example, you fly downwind at your designated circuit height, and begin to climb at the point where you would normally turn Base.

 

 

[Pearo]

Why? Aircraft would either be joining from your left (crosswind), joining behind you (downwind), ahead of you (straight in), or beneath you in unusual case of a base join.Level flight in the circuit is something that is taught to students to give them reference points in the circuit. I personally would never maintain a level segment in a circuit unless I was doing circuit practice.

The problem is not joining aircraft, but people who are overflying to join. Overflying aircraft are likely only going to be 500ft above circuit height, so it makes sense to avoid climbing in this area.

 

There is by default, because you are in the circuit, and have to maintain circuit height, and if everyone does that you won't have the separation issues.Where the airfield has specific requirements you follow those.

Nightmare's #17 confirms this using the words "extending one of the standard circuit legs", so, for example, you fly downwind at your designated circuit height, and begin to climb at the point where you would normally turn Base.

CAAP says "Aircraft should depart the aerodrome circuit area by extending one of the standard circuit legs or climbing to depart overhead". Climbing out on downwind is not flying contrary to the circuit direction.

 

 

[Nightmare]

There is by default, because you are in the circuit, and have to maintain circuit height, and if everyone does that you won't have the separation issues.Where the airfield has specific requirements you follow those.

Nightmare's #17 confirms this using the words "extending one of the standard circuit legs", so, for example, you fly downwind at your designated circuit height, and begin to climb at the point where you would normally turn Base.

Just listen to the radio, if you hear someone is inbound from the direction that you are intending to leave the circuit, it may be prudent to maintain circuit height until out of the circuit area (3nm) and then begin your climb. Better yet, contact that aircraft on the CTAF to ensure separation. You could make a call like: "Aircraft approaching XXXX Airfield (or the aircraft call sign if you can remember it). 3 nm north 1000 tracking north, I will stay at no higher than 1000, Lightwing 1234." If you get a response, you should get a position report and organize your separation. In that case, all is good, you are both aware of each other. Keep an eye out though, not all aircraft are radio equipped.