The pre-war Messerschmitt tourer - Bf 108 Taifun

[Garfly]

Just came across this amazing silent film from the early 30's

 

"Construction of an Aircraft":

 

 

 

[Cosmick]

Using Clecos 80 years ago

 

 

[Garfly]

Yeah, the use of the clecos that early was noted by a commenter in another YouTube posting of this film:

 

"What an elegant airplane design. Every pilot must itch to fly one. The spring-loaded fasteners being installed with pliers to hold together sheets of aluminum for riveting, sometimes referred to as dagger clamps, are called cleco fasteners in the U.S. after their manufacturer, The Cleveland Company. I always assumed that Cleco invented the fastener, as they have been used here since the 1930s, but their appearance in this film makes me wonder. Perhaps they were licensed or sold in Germany."

 

 

By the way, here's a fun little movie advertising a new plastic kit of the Me-109, the Taifun's aggressive offspring

 

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Just came across this amazing silent film from the early 30's... [/Quote]Thanks for that Garfly. A winner! You nailed it! Too often I've sent good money to America for videos and books about my favourite aircraft (including the Bf-108 and the beautiful Albatross) and instead received overdramatised dross about the heroes who flew them... and nothing at all about the aircraft themselves.

 

At last we get to see the real heroes- those who beavered away designing and building awesome aircraft!

[Garfly]

Yes, OldK, they're beautiful aeroplanes. Did you catch this one on YouTube?

 

The 30's film starts with sheet aluminium and this one - a generation earlier - with planks of wood.

 

We can see cinema and aviation - each born with the 20th century - developing together. ;-)

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I just came across this video today as well and was about to post it.

 

 

[winsor68]

Was the Messerschmidt a much smaller aircraft than their allied counterparts?

 

 

[Cosmick]

Yes, OldK, they're beautiful aeroplanes. Did you catch this one on YouTube?The 30's film starts with sheet aluminium and this one - a generation earlier - with planks of wood.

 

We can see cinema and aviation - each born with the 20th century - developing together. ;-)

 

All hand made and everything just fits in place. Funny, I have an old very functional "G" Clamp passed down from Dad etc. Looks just like the ones they used in the clip.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Was the Messerschmidt a much smaller aircraft than their allied counterparts?

The Spitfire and the 109 were similar in many ways. Each new mark brought about improvements and performances leap-frogged one another at various times. 109 generally had a slightly higher ceiling and Spitfire had slightly tighter turn. 109 was always more heavily armed than Spitfire but 8 x .303 close up did a pretty devastating job on an opponent. 109 cannon was heavier and more reliable than the "cannon" fitted to later Spits. Biggest advantage for the Luftwaffe was the experience so many of their pilots gained in the Spanish Civil War prior to WWII.

 

Werner Mulders is credited with having his pilots use the "finger four" or swarme which comprised two rotte or pairs, rather than the Vic favoured by RAF early on. The Vic looks lovely in a formation display but the two behind were so busy watching their leader that they couldn't keep a good look out behind. It killed a lot of fine young men before the Brits woke up.

 

The other problem was that the RAF between wars believed that bombers would always get through and not enough effort was put into fighters and pilots trained to fly them. The consequence was that fighters were led by a flight leader who announced the particular attack ballet from a set of practised patterns but the reality was that everything broke up into a wild melee as soon as the two sides met.

 

The English channel did more to defeat Germany in the Battle than the Air Ministry.

 

Kaz

 

Note the silhouette of the 108, it's VS prop, it's retractable undercarriage and performance and you can see this pre-war aircraft being used to train a lot of young pilots contrary to the Versailles treaty while Willy got to work on the 109.

 

 

[facthunter]

The german engines had more sophisticated superchargers, so got up there better (higher altitudes). The BF 109 is a crude and ugly thing compared to the spit airframe wise. External struts on the tailplane? Spitfire was too expensive to build and repair. Hawker Hurricanes did most of the hard work. Lots of variants to the later spitfires to suit tasks required. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...you can see this pre-war aircraft being used to train a lot of young pilots contrary to the Versailles treaty while Willy got to work on the 109.

There are always clever and devious ways around the rules. Often the effect of sanctions and embargoes is to promote local innovation. Banned from making warplanes, the Germany became world leaders in gliders and transports. Daimler Benz focussed on supercharged racing car engines. When Hitler came along they rapidly put all the bits together...

 

 

[Garfly]

Old Koreelah said (in #4 above) : "... At last we get to see the real heroes- those who beavered away designing and building awesome aircraft!"

 

This animated film by Miyazaki about aircraft designer Horikoshi definitely puts airplane dreaming front and centre (along with romantic love, of course).

 

The Wind Rises - DVD

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Yes, OldK, they're beautiful aeroplanes. Did you catch this one on YouTube?The 30's film starts with sheet aluminium and this one - a generation earlier - with planks of wood.

 

We can see cinema and aviation - each born with the 20th century - developing together. ;-)

 

Although this was wartime, the pace of work seems almost leisurely and I was fascinated to see dust extractors- generations before I saw them in this country.

 

 

[derekliston]

There is an ME108 being restored at the HARS museum .

 

 

[Garfly]

There is an ME108 being restored at the HARS museum .

That's great to know. Must look in next time I'm passing there.

 

Messerschmitt 108 NORD 1002 Taifun Pigouin HARS Stigler

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...This animated film by Miyazaki about aircraft designer Horikoshi definitely puts airplane dreaming front and centre (along with romantic love, of course).

Great to see, Garfly. Horikoshi is right up there in the pantheon of great designers. His Zero was so far ahead of what the Allies had at the time that many Americans couldn't accept that the Japanese could have produced it, and claimed it was a copy of one of their designs.

 

 

[naremman]

Can recall seeing an airworthy example at Duxford in 1976. Walking around it you certainly could see the similarity to its younger brother. Security was not such an issue then, so one could walk almost impeded across the tarmac and through the hangars checking out a veritable treasure trove of aviation history. Having visited the Imperial War Museum's aviation section earlier in London, a lot of their surplus gear was stored at Duxford. Whilst I still retain good memories of the day, what I would give in the unlikely event I could recreate that day!

 

 

[facthunter]

Having seen an "as crashed" Mitsubishi model 0 Many of the stories, (theories) of it's quality and origins vanish. It's very much what it is . Different, small, beautiful build quality, and sophisticated materials. Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

The Spitfire v Hurricane debate is as old the aircraft. There were several times more Hurricanes than Spitfires in operation during the battle because the Air Ministry issued a purchase order to Hawker in 1937 but Vickers didn't get one until a year later. They commenced production without one because they had such confidence in Mitchell's design. So arguments over the respective numbers of aircraft shot down are a little specious.

 

The Hurricane was a conventional airframe, fabric over wood and tube, which allowed a lot of projectiles to pass through without serious damage. It was a steadier gun platform but seriously hampered by its lower ceiling and rate of climb as the fight progressed. Early in the Battle the bombers were coming over at around 12,000' which was ideal for the Hurricane with its greater drag giving it a slower climb to higher altitudes. As the fight progressed bombers at 26,000' with fighters to 34,000' were common so the Spitfire, with its stronger and more aerodynamic airframe took on the 109's leaving the Heinkels and Dorniers to the Hurris when the fighters came down.

 

The 109s and the Spits were pretty evenly matched during the Battle with advances in design giving each an advantage at different points. The 109 had a great advantage early on gained from its fuel injected engine which allowed it to bunt over into a dive and escape the Merlins which suffered momentary power loss caused by their carburettor floats cutting off supply due to g.The Spits countered this by half-rolling into the dive instead. The spits took a Great Leap Forward with the fitting of Rotol propellers, a carby mod designed by a woman and backplate armour before the Germans cottoned on. They got another huge advantage with the fitting of 2 stage superchargers a year or so later. The Spit was stressed to take higher g loads than the 109 and did not suffer the weakness in the tail that killed a fair number of Luftwaffe guys. There were a few reports of Spits getting up to what we now know was around Mach .85 in dives and coming back with delta wings afterwards. The Merlin II and III fitted to the Spit I were rated at 1030 hp. Byr 1944 the Merlin 66 was producing more than 1800 hp.

 

When the first FW 190's hit the air it was pretty devastating for the Mark V and Vb drivers who were way outclassed until they transitioned to the Mark XIX. Even then, they had a lot of problems, especially when the Long Nose arrived on scene. This was when the Tempest V took over as FW and later V2 killer. Pierre Costerman talks of his constant fear when driving a Tempest because of its horrendous swing on takeoff, brute power, and incredible speed rapidly attained in a dive. With a max speed of 380 mph and a climb of 4400' at sea level it was quite a machine. The Sabre II engine fitted to the V developed 2400 hp but later models went to an astonishing 3055 hp!

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

During the Battle, Fighter Command lost 1023 aircraft which included the unfortunate Defiants which were another disaster imposed by the Air Ministry. The Luftwaffe lost 1887 which was a ratio of 1.8:1 which is accounted for by the number of bombers brought down before they got back across the Ditch. BUT! On a fighter to fighter basis the figures tip slightly in favour of the Luftwaffe at 1.2:1. This came about due to the much greater combat experience of Luftwaffe pilots at the beginning of the War.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

Finally, the Anzacs in the RAF carried a lot more than their weight. 35% of the Australians were killed, one of the highest rates of any nationality. Fighter Command's loss rate overall was 18% and the high Aussie losses are attributed to their frontline placements and extended tours.

 

"The Australian aces, Hughes, Millington, Mayers, Curchin, Cock and Hilary accounted for 60% of Australian claims and were characterised by their aggressive willingness to engage, marksmanship and a superior sense of their three-dimensional combat environment" (Adam Claasen in Dogfight:The Battle of Britain). Only Hughes and Hilary flew Spits, the others Hurricanes.

 

"Although Anzacs made up only approximTely 5% of Fighter Comman, they supplied nearly one-third of the top ten aces...between them, Hughes (Aust) and Carbury and Gray (NZ) took out 50 enemy machines in just 4 months."

 

Kaz

 

 

[winsor68]

The Spitfire and the 109 were similar in many ways. .

I was thinking if the Taifun is a Me109 with a different seating configuration...according to the photos below that would make the Me109 considerably smaller than the Spitfire and especially the Mustang.

 

 

 

 

 

[naremman]

Finally, the Anzacs in the RAF carried a lot more than their weight. 35% of the Australians were killed, one of the highest rates of any nationality. Fighter Command's loss rate overall was 18% and the high Aussie losses are attributed to their frontline placements and extended tours."The Australian aces, Hughes, Millington, Mayers, Curchin, **** and Hilary accounted for 60% of Australian claims and were characterised by their aggressive willingness to engage, marksmanship and a superior sense of their three-dimensional combat environment" (Adam Claasen in Dogfight:The Battle of Britain). Only Hughes and Hilary flew Spits, the others Hurricanes.

 

"Although Anzacs made up only approximTely 5% of Fighter Comman, they supplied nearly one-third of the top ten aces...between them, Hughes (Aust) and Carbury and Gray (NZ) took out 50 enemy machines in just 4 months."

 

Kaz

Kaz, could we include Al Deere to those already mentioned. Bluey Truscott, although missing the Battle of Britain, made his impact in 1941/42

 

 

[Mick]

I was thinking if the Taifun is a Me109 with a different seating configuration...according to the photos below that would make the Me109 considerably smaller than the Spitfire and especially the Mustang.

Yes the 109 is significantly smaller than the Spit & other Allied fighters. I stood next to a 109E at an airshow near Detroit in 2008 and was really surprised how small it was. I am 6' 2" and could look clear over the top of the rudder with tailwheel on the ground, standing next to the cockpit I had a full view into it. I can't do that with any other WWII fighter that I have been near. No wonder it performed, alot of horsepower in a small plane!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz, could we include Al Deere to those already mentioned. Bluey Truscott, although missing the Battle of Britain, made his impact in 1941/42

Both magnificent heros, naremman, and well worthy of recognition in a broader discussion. Al Deere was a NZer who flew Spitfires and whose exploits kept morale high amongst his countrymen in dire circumstances. Bluey, apart from having been captain of Melbourne FC, broke a few Spitfires in England after the Battle and demolished a number of Japanese aircraft in a P40 flying out of Gurney airfield in Eastern NG. His squadron and a small number of Australian and American ground troops turned back the Japanese advance for the first time since the beginning of the war. The P40s under his command did so many sorties and fired so many rounds through the .50s that the bores were smoothed of rifling.

 

Kaz