RA-Aus receives ATSB grant!

[Admin]

The CEO of Recreational Aviation Australia, Lee Ungermann today announced that the RA-Aus have received a grant of $5,500 from ATSB for enhanced training of the RA-Aus Accident Investigators.

 

The money will go towards an extensive 2 day workshop where accident investigators will be further trained in ascertaining the causes in the unfortunate event of an accident ever happening. This will assist everyone concerned, from loved ones to RA-Aus pilots and aircraft owners in getting to an accurate and speedy conclusion as to why an accident happened.

 

Thankyou ATSB

 

 

[shafs64]

great news from ATSB. its good to see them helping.

 

shafs

 

 

[old man emu]

I was a traffic accident investigator, trained in the USA, during my police career. I have also investigated some fatal aviation incidents for the NSW Coroner. What qualifications does the RAA require for its accident investigators?

 

Where would the course be held?

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I'd be surprised if there was a requirement to be qualified in this area prior to being employed by RA-Aus as there are employees with no background in this who have conducted investigations on occasions. There are designated investigators in most states who usually come from a trusted background including L2, LAME and or instructor status. The funding will help them to complete their investigations a little better.

 

Normally I would personally suggest that the money would be better spent on accident prevention, however if a Such-and-Such-Super-Drive Mark 1 propellor falls of and kills someone and an AD being released prevents even an injury or death it is all worth while.

 

 

[Tq2Jetman]

One of the hats I can wear is that of an aircraft accident/incident investigator. Attended the UNSW course back in late 2003. Its quite interesting how not a lot of interest is given this subject until after the you know what has hit the fan. And if its big lumps and people are hurt or worse, look out, once those legal types get involved it can get very expensive.

 

Investigations are more likely to deliver good results if they are carried out asap following an event not months/years later.

 

Good to see some of my taxes going towards this type of long range thinking.

 

 

[Guest RogerRammedJet]

Hmmmm! Censored again!

 

Rog

 

 

 

If you continue to post in the usual manner that you have been then YES you will continue to be censored through moderation until we get tired of editing your posts and then it is a simple click of a button the moderators have that says "BAN" - Ian

 

 

[old man emu]

I'd be surprised if there was a requirement to be qualified in this area prior to being employed by RA-Aus as there are employees with no background in this who have conducted investigations on occasions.

I am surprised that "unqualified" people have carried out investigations for the RAA. (No disrespect intended to those who may have done so.) The status of these investigations is greatly dependant on the experience and expertise of the investigators.

 

The first goal of an investigation is to determine the facts which lead to an incident. After the facts have been determined, they can then be examined to see if there was any negligence leading to the incident.

 

E.g.: An aircraft has groundlooped on landing. Was it caused by inexperienced piloting? If "Yes", then no negligence, but a recommendation for further training.

 

If "No", then was someone other than the pilot interferring with the controls? If "Yes", then perhaps the person who was could be dealt with criminally.

 

If the aircraft failed: Was it poor design ? If so, issue a AD/AN.

 

Was it poor maintenance? If so, was there negligence in the conduct of the maintenance by someone? Was the negligence due to lack of skill, or culpable conduct?

 

The answers to these latter questions might lead to litigation, years down the track. That's why those who investigate incidents need to have training in the legal process, as well as their qualifications relating to all facets of aviation.

 

If I've come across a bit heavy, it's because I've had a lot of experience of the consequences of transport incidents, and I know how traumatic it is when in the witness box, trying to give an unbiased explanation for a transport incident.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

OME you're sounding like a policeman. I would have hoped that RAAus investigators were using investigation methodology more consistent with ATSB and the Reason Model.

 

 

[shafs64]

Normally I would personally suggest that the money would be better spent on accident prevention, however if a Such-and-Such-Super-Drive Mark 1 propellor falls of and kills someone and an AD being released prevents even an injury or death it is all worth while.

 

i would go with the above. after meeting a young man at a NSW airfield about four years ago. and then a week later he was killed in a accident in a rans

 

Most of the time these people are faceless so it does not seem to affect us. maybee we should do TAC type. in poster form.

 

i know thing are improveing RAA is running human factor courses for IPs it seems to be a step in the right direction.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I am aware of the circumstances surrounding the Rans accident and it was a shocking waste of life and property - very distressing and TOTALLY avoidable.

 

Old Man Emu - they work with what they have. You can't be a jack of all trades. Until such time that RA aircraft are recognised as 'real' aircraft and the ATSB get involved we'll be stuck with knowledge gained from a $5,500 training course that went for 2 days. Better off spending the money lobbying to get RA accidents (particularly fatal ones) included in ATSB investigations.

 

 

[TechMan]

Not wanting to blow our own horn on this issue, the inspector training along with the procedures and handouts that have been implemented into the 'go' kits that our investigators have access to is running pretty much at 'worlds best practice'.

 

From doing the Cranfield Accident Investigator course run by ATSB (Cranfield investigators were heading up the Lockerby disaster), the procedures we teach our investigators are not very different at all as to how those chaps do it, albeit on a much larger scale for them.

 

Unfortunately, the process of accident reporting is slowed down due to the agencies involved in reporting the facts.

 

RA-Aus is simply there to ASSIST the Police with their investigation. RA-Aus has no jurisdiction or say in anything on an accident site, though through good relations and positive communications, RA-Aus offers assistance to the Police, which has yet to be turned down by them.

 

RA-Aus compiles a report for the Police, if ATSB gets involved with parts checking, then an ATSB report is also compiled and both reports go to the Police to be included in their report to the Coroner.

 

The RA-Aus reports are generally done fairly quickly. After that it is out of RA-Aus' hands.

 

Considering the money pool that we have compared to ATSB, I don't think we do too bad.

 

Chris

 

 

[Captain]

Chris

 

 

 

What is the position with accident investigation when an "ultralight" aircraft is registered VH.

 

 

 

Does that GA rego require that it receive a different investigation by different folks (ATSB or ??) or would the same RAA inspectors do the work.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[yharry]

ChrisWhat is the position with accident investigation when an "ultralight" aircraft is registered VH.

 

Does that GA rego require that it receive a different investigation by different folks (ATSB or ??) or would the same RAA inspectors do the work.

 

Regards Geoff

I also would like to know the answer to this question, when the aircraft is not an ultralight, but is VH registered,.

 

Specifically, what qualifications do the 'RAA Inspectors' have and what former knowledge of the particular aircraft do they have, and what experience is required in this field to be able to give a qualified opinion?

 

I invite replies by pm and would like to discuss this further with those that have authority in this area.

 

pm me with a phone no, or pm me to get my no.

 

safe travels

 

harry.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

ATSB

 

I would imagine that the cost of investigation of a fatal accident would be greater than the $5K mentioned if carried out by the ATSB. LSA VH registeredf are investigated by the ATSB and can be viewed on their web site.

 

I personally would like serious accidents and incidents investigated by the highest experienced personel and have wondered for some time why the RAaus do not lobby for this help. The findings would only benifit ourselfs.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

A few years ago the Southern California Safety Institute and Cranfield courses were the internationally recognised courses, but there are now some capable courses in contemporary accident investigation available locally.

 

The ATSB has collaborated on development of a Cert4 or Grad Dip in transport safety investigation. The UNSW Department of Aviation also has 5-day course which is quite adaptable to client needs. We even adapted it to train some rail safety investigators.

 

There are also very good theory courses available including ICAM (incident cause analysis method).

 

If the RAAus investigators have done the Cranfield course, then that's about as good as it gets. But good investigators should have ongoing training and ideally maintain their professional development with bodies such as ISASI.

 

In my view the greatest hurdle the RAAus investigators have is a lack of the same legislated power that ATSB investigators have to obtain evidence.

 

Without additional resources, and with a legal mandate that focuses their attention elsewhere, I can understand the ATSB being reluctant to investigate RAAus accidents.

 

I agree with the views expressed here that many of these incidents need to be professionally investigated to aid in preventing recurrence.

 

With the rapidly expanding size of RAAus the justification exists for DoTARS and the minister to feel obligated to act. Whether that be through increasing the scope and funding of ATSB or through legislating to give RAAus investigators legal authority to obtain evidence, who knows? That debate remains to be had, but it's time to have it.

 

 

[Yenn]

What is the position with accident investigation when an "ultralight" aircraft is registered VH.

 

When an aircraft is registered VH it cannot be an ultralight, in the same way that planes which were once only registerable GA and are now registered ultralight are no longer VH.

 

A bit of a bummer really as my Corby is not allowed into controlled airspace, cannot do aerobatics or night VFR, whereas others can. Win some, lose some.