Guest airsick Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Unfortunately on the NatFly weekend just gone there was an incident involving a Jabiru (Paul Middletons I believe however cirrect me if I am wrong). I have heard a couple of descriptions as to what occurred so rather than speculate as to which is correct I will simply describe the events of the two most likely (in my mind) and let others who have more information add to it. Facts: At the time the runway in use was 11 with the wind strong but favourable for this strip. The aircraft, when I came across it, was on the south west of the intersection of runway 04 and 11 (see X on attached diagram). The damage to the aircraft is quite extensive. There is what appears to be a fracture around the tail boom (hard to see but visible near the lens flare in img_1996 attached) and some ripples along the top of the right wing. The landing gear is completely collapsed on the left side and on the right side seems to be 'splitting'. The tail wheel was separated from the aircraft. The engine cowl had been ripped off in the impact and there appeared to some damage to the engine. Interestingly the propeller appeared to be completely unscathed suggesting the engine wasn't running when the aircraft impacted. Scenario 1 The aircraft was using 11 and was past the threshold when a gust of wind caused the aircraft to roll to the right and pushed it south of the runway onto the grassed area. The right wing tip struck the ground and spun the aircraft almost 90 degrees to its intended track. The aircraft then struck the ground while travelling parallel to runway 22 and further spun to be facing a westerly direction before coming to rest in the location described above. Scenario 2 The aircraft was doing cross wind circuits on runway 22 (grass or sealed) and could not sufficiently compensate for the amount of wind present. The aircraft was pushed west and crossed the runway 11 west of the intersection. The aircraft then struck the ground, spun to the right by 90 degress and came to rest as described above. At some point the right wing tip also struck the ground. Engine failure? A third, and entirely speculative scenario, is engine failure. I noticed that the propeller escaped the incident without a scratch. If it was turning when the aircraft hit the ground then I would have expected that there would be signs of a prop strike such as dirt on the blades or something similar. Being a wooden propeller I am amazed it didn't just shatter on impact. To me this hints that it was in the horizontal position prior to impact. I want to stress that this is purely speculation based on my observations of the aircraft post accident. Observations The ground was quite soft around the runway edges and the aircraft was a considerable distance from any strip so it must have had a fair amount of momentum to keep it going after the undercarriage dug in. The location of the aircraft places it quite some way from runway 11. If landing on this runway I would have thought momentum would carry it along the runway more so than perpendicular to it. The skids marks are almost at right angles to the strip so this seems a little strange. Having said this... There was quite a bit of circuit traffic during the day and it was quite breezy so it wouldn't seem sensible to be doing cross wind circuits. Scenario 2 seems a little less likely given this. Can anyone confirm the circumstances surrounding this accident? Can someone confirm if it was Paul Middletons plane? The rego is 19-4000 so this shouldn't be too difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 It was definitely Middo. At the dinner only 2 hours later he was there being gently ribbed by a couple of the speakers. He seemed to take it in good humour. All I heard (apart from speculation) was that he got crossed up on landing. I asked Chris Kiehn if someone could lay out the facts to avoid all the speculation that was flying around, but nothing was said apart from the jabs about Jabs. Let's not go overboard with speculation here either. The facts will come out. Perhaps Techman can elaborate now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 in my expert i didnt witness anything based purely on speculation professional opinion, looks like he groundlooped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Herring Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi All I think that we should not speculate at all on a public forum. let's wait until the official report is out as i am certain that Middo will write about it in the fullness of time. As it was there was far too much speculation and inuendo on the field at the time. Remember incidents can happen to any of us at any time any wouldn't we rather just read about the facts? Regards Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 The facts will come out. I and another couple of blokes were watching the entire episode and within the normal limits of human recall, here is what I saw. There were 2 or 3 aircraft waiting to depart on 11 and a Jabiru was on final for 11. The wind was pretty well down that strip, it appeared to be the best strip to use and it had been the active runway for some time. As the Jabiru was about to flare, the wind changed to a good 20 - 25 knots of cross-wind and it blew like that for about 5 minutes, before going back to 11. With the wind the way it was, even that great (sky) pilot JC himself would have had a hard time landing ...... not to mention that his dad the CFI would have also been working hard to keep it under control. The timing of that wind change could not have been worse for that aircraft. It got under the wing, the pilot tried to correct & continue his landing, then he appeared to add power to try to go around and unfortunately turned downwind, almost caught it, lost it again, almost caught it again, touched a wing-tip at 60 - 70 degrees of bank and the rest is history. It was much more than a ground loop, but there but for the grace of god go all of us if a sudden & totally unexpected 90 degree wind change (the strength of which is well above the limits of the aircraft) happens while you are flaring. I have no idea whether it would have been better or worse with a trike undercarriage, but I do know that it blew bloody hard cross-wind during the incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi Ed, To a point, I agree. Speculation is not always good especially if it leads to false conclusions but discussion about what could have happened can lead to some useful insights, even if what we think happened didn't really happen at all. Sound dumb? Think about this. I noticed the prop was untouched so I mentioned the possibility of an engine failure. Now this may or may not be the case but if discussing the possibility yields some useful insights into what someone should do in such an event then isn't it worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Gazer Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi Ed,.... but discussion about what could have happened can lead to some useful insights, even if what we think happened didn't really happen at all. Sound dumb? ... Sounds perfectly logical to me. How can stimulating thought and discussion on how to deal with any situation regardles of it being factual or hyppothetical be anything but a good thing ? I'd rather speculate on the correct way to deal with a situation from the comfort of my desk and with the benefit of the experience on this forum rather than have to work it out by myself in a highly stressful situation when the consequences may be very $$$$ or even fatal. Additionally the feedback on what and why not to follow a prticular course of action can also be extremely enlighteneing. But thats just my novice view. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Not wanting to offend anyone but human nature and curiosity will always get the better of us and we can't help but ask ourselves "how did that happen" and then try to offer an explanation. These forums offer the ability to ask that question "out loud" and interact as we would if we were all sitting around the local aero club - this forum is effectively a virtual aero club...well that's how I think of it anyway. I can't imagine anyone in that situation (sitting around the local aero club) suggesting to halt discussion on the matter or not speculate on what might've happened. I'd expect you would hear everyone offering their thoughts and opinions and there be an open discussion about it - based on fact, imagination, experience etc. As with SkyGazer & Airsick, I suggest this forum is in place to encourage discussion, debate, tales of experiences (good and bad) etc. and should allow the same discussion "virtually" that we'd have if we were all sitting around the local aero club and use that as the "gauge of appropriateness" (for want of a better term). The forum is full of people with significant skills & experience and those with little, the hope is to increase the number of the former and this can only occur through open communication. <High horse removed from soap box> ;) PS> Glad Middo escaped without injury, damn shame about his recently completed baby though. Cheers, Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Well said Matt. I have also edited my original post to include the photos. Have a look if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken deVos Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 The wind was pretty well down that strip, it appeared to be the best strip to use and it had been the active runway for some time. As the Jabiru was about to flare, the wind changed to a good 20 - 25 knots of cross-wind and it blew like that for about 5 minutes, before going back to 11. Very unfortunate accident and thankfully no injuries. I concur with captain about the wind conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I agree with what Matt says and very much encourage it from a learning point of view BUT I will always draw the line and moderate very quickly if a finger gets pointed until facts come out. Doesn't matter if it is the ex-CEO, an A380 Capt, an F1-11 jockey, you or me - every mishap can be used for learning and that is what is encouraged but with NO blame on anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 True, we all hear lots of things - like I heard that he was sucking on a cigarette, drinking a beer and pouring a glass of water like Bob Hoover in an aileron roll after an engine failure whilst trying to land at Narromine ! Speaking of which - I'd be interested to know out there who has not been able to resist the temptation and light up a ciggie whilst flying their own aircraft ? ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vk3auu Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 A friend and I went out around 10 PM and had a fairly good look at the results using torch and moonlight. I didn't notice the damage around the tail, but overall, considering the distance that it finished up from the strip, I thought it demonstrated that the construction was fairly robust. I also thought that the lack of propellor damage was remarkable, although the fact that it was a tail-dragger helped, even though the gear had collapsed on the left side. If I may make a couple of comments regarding pilots with low time on their new aeroplane. It is prudent to spent considerable time using a gravel strip, rather than a sealed strip, when learning to land your tail-dragger. Ground loops on bitumen can be very nasty, whereas on gravel, quite controlled ground loops are possible. Some tail-draggers are not actually under control until they are parked, and I believe this applies to Jabirus, even when flown by ex-airline pilots/instuctors. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest clemair Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 What a sobering scene that was at Narromine. A reminder to us all that despite your experience and skills mother nature can throw a curve ball at you. Having survived a catostrophic engine failure at night a few years ago, these incidents are nothing short of character building to say the least. As aviators we are in a risky business, this however can be minimised by our total approach to how we do things, our decission making process before we take off and our in flight management. If we take a professional approach even when we fly for fun we are not only reinforcing good habbits but proving to the sceptics that recreational aircraft can mix it with the best of them in the air. What ever the cause of the incident at Narromine, I have no doubts that when things went pear shaped that the pilot used all of his ability and sound flying skills to turn this potentially fatal incident into another landing that he walked away from. All I can say is, well done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 My thoughts on this are that it would be far better to wait for the facts, from someone who saw what happened or was involved or from RAAus. To describe the condition of the plane after the event and then to give a few scenarios of what may have happened is in my opinion poor taste. If you want to describe an accident and give it several possible causes, it would be better to state that it is a hypothetical situation, in which case we can all have our say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 That's a fair comment Yenn. In defence of my scenarios outlined above they came from two independent sources that saw the incident. In both cases they only saw the latter parts of the incident hence the 'fuzzy' nature of how it began. Captain was another person who saw the whole incident and has since filled in a few gaps with more facts. I think discussing it in a mature way is not poor taste. Laying blame inappropriately and pointing the finger however would be. As Ian said, he will be quick to put a stop to that type of behaviour. As long as we keep it all above board I don't think anyone should get their nose out of joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 In regards to the absence of a prop strike, there are another possibilities: Fate, Kismet or just plain good luck. Old Man Emu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J430 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Wasn't there but I have a fair idea of what could have happened to poor Middo. Jab SPT-6 gusty X-wind , gets crossed up, tries to go around. Problems: Relatively speaking......BIG HP, 125 ponies, little plane, small rudder (way too small)......he lost it! I am sure Middo will tell it like it is, he has always been that way in the past.....and I suspect that the conditions changed, he tried to out fly it, and simply lost it. Either way, the poor bloke has stuffed his pride and joy and years of work, and is back to the bunny farm to fix it no doubt! J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RLP Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Well I don't fly and I've never built nor assembled an aircraft. I don't know "Middo" either, but I have followed his exploits as it were through the pages of the AUF/RA-Aus magazine - read his comments and advice on the industry and given him a silent cheer when he retired to (among other things no doubt) finish his Jab. There is a pic of him and I think a family member in a mag, (the mag?) working on this airplane and It often springs to mind as I potter in my own shed, contemplating the gentle spectre of my own not so distant retirement. Putting all that together with the pics in this post - my heart goes out to the bloke. And so soon after having finished it, that must be like saving enough for a treat from the canteen at lunch time only to have the school bully steal all your lollies. Well, from someone who doesn't fly, never built an aircraft, and who you wouldn't know from a bar of soap - bad luck cobber. Hopefully it wont mean too much other than more hours with the family in the shed plying those tools of the trade. - Regards. And sorry all for the paragraphing, broken enter key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 RLP. I second that, we all owe a debt of gratitude to Middo for guiding RAAus and us over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentas Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 The aircraft looks as though it could be up and flying again in no time for a few thou. Testament to the Jabs strong build and quick local turnaround of parts. Maybe we could `pass the hat around` for him to get it fixed. I have learned a lot from him over the years and have always enjoyed his writing ways, its the least I could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 The aircraft looks as though it could be up and flying again in no time for a few thou. If you saw it first hand I think you would have a different view. The fuse was fractured around the tail boom, the wings were wrinkled, I'd imagine there would be some substantial damge to the underside. Just my opinion but I don't think it is repairable. Even if it was repaired I would have so many doubts about it that I certainly wouldn't be getting into it. Maybe we could `pass the hat around` for him to get it fixed. With all due respect why? I don't know the guy so I won't pass judgement on him but isn't this what insurance is for? I will gladly pass the hat around for those who come into some bad luck which is completely beyond their control (think illnesses such as cancer for example) but if someone has a plane and doesn't see the need to insure it then I certainly won't be there to pick up the pieces for them. I don't know whether he had insurance or not but if he didn't see the need to cover himself then I for one am not going to bear the risk for him. I extend my sympathies to him for losing his pride and joy, I hope he is well and got out of it relatively unscathed (along with any passengers), I hope he goes on to fly another day, but I also hope that he truly is a good guy and recognised that flying can be risky and was appropriately prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechMan Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 If you saw it first hand I think you would have a different view. The fuse was fractured around the tail boom, the wings were wrinkled, I'd imagine there would be some substantial damge to the underside. Just my opinion but I don't think it is repairable. Even if it was repaired I would have so many doubts about it that I certainly wouldn't be getting into it. I had a look at it, and whilst there is a lot of work to be done, it is a fairly simple repair. Is it worth it? Well, it would be for someone who has just spent 4 years or more building it. Is it viable? It would be for a professional repairer if the wreck could be purchased cheap enough. As for the owner, the question of how much money to throw at it, compared to selling the aircraft as is and putting the money spent on repairs towards a second hand aircraft and just going flying as quickly as possible would come into consideration, though then you are purchasing someone else's problems which may cost more to fix in the end. As a side, the aircraft will be repaired, so I guess that answers the decision made. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I am surprised. I didn't think it would be worth it. But as I said, that was just my opinion. I looked at the damage and thought it would be quite costly and, given the cheap purchase price of these things, not viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfrost Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 There is always people out there with more experience and knowledge than ourselves and sometimes it is best to ask a question than make a unqualified statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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