Jabiru comparison with others

[Headwind]

Sometime in the (hopefully) near future I’ll be looking at aircraft ownership again. Recently I have been flying mostly Foxbat’s and Vixxen’s after moving on from GA. Would love to hear some experienced views on Jab comparisons with other RAAus types; high or low wing. I haven’t flown a Jab but I’m baffled by how you operate the brakes and yoke in crosswind. 
I hope to be able to support Australian manufacturers. Ta!

[JabiruWeekendWarrior]

Hi Headwind, I have a J160 and find its easy to operate the brakes and yoke, most Jabirus have a centre of cabin U shape yoke and when needed you put your hand through the U shape and operate the brakes and just angle your elbow slighly to push the yoke left or right as needed. Strange as it looks

If you try it you will find its quite easy, its all a one hand operation leaving your left hand free.

[Earl Pike]

Hello Headwind…

Operating the brake and yoke are the least of your flying worries…

I fly a Jabiru 230 D…If you actually want to get some where, the 230 has the range and speed of a lot of GA aircraft, with a very generous weight limit..

I recently undertook a trip with a friend who flys a Diamond..He said “ I cruise at 120knts’, I replied, so do I. He had to stop to refuel, I could have reached our destination, without stopping..

I really like my aeroplane..

[Keith W]

I agree with Earl my 230 is a great plane to fly, good cruise speed and economical, my 160 was a good plane to fly as well but I prefer the 230.

[skippydiesel]

Jabs are great and a big bang for the cost compared with most others.

 

If you want something that has a similar stall to a Foxbat (32 Knots) , can fly  a lot faster than a Jab (100-120 Knots) check out ATEC Faeta 27-135 KN  & Pipistrel Virus SW,  about the same performance.

 

I have never flown a Virus SW however the Faeta and its older slower sibling, the Zephyr are very very nice to fly - far nicer (in my opinion) than either the Jab range or Foxbat.

 

The Rotax powered Faeta  & Virus SW will econamy cruise at about 120 knots for a fuel burn of around 13-14L/hr ULP.

 

Both Faeta & Virus have about 300 kg empty weight -  Faeta 600 kg TO Virus SW 472.5 kg and can carry 100L ULP.

 

The principal of ATEC recently died, so I don't know if new aircraft are available - if not check out the preloved market (Europe nearly always has a few for sale  - don't forget to add the cost of shipping/import). Note : EU Faeta may have smaller fuel capacity & lower TO weight.

 

Pipistrel was bought out by Textron (American) and suddenly (without apparent engine/aerodynamic changes ) the Virus SW went from a 27 Knot stall  - High speed cruise of 135 knots  (NASA CAFE Competition figures) to Stall not given - High speed cruise  of 160 Knots???? If you drill down a bit the Cruise comes back to a slightly more be believable 147 Knots (still a tad on the high side).

 

The Faeta was always much cheapener to purchase than the Virus SW.

 

😈

 

[facthunter]

Be better it's name didn't sound like some kind of food and Virus's are not good.  Nev

[BrendAn]

6 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Jabs are great and a big bang for the cost compared with most others.

 

If you want something that has a similar stall to a Foxbat (32 Knots) , can fly  a lot faster than a Jab (100-120 Knots) check out ATEC Faeta 27-135 KN  & Pipistrel Virus SW,  about the same performance.

 

I have never flown a Virus SW however the Faeta and its older slower sibling, the Zephyr are very very nice to fly - far nicer (in my opinion) than either the Jab range or Foxbat.

 

The Rotax powered Faeta  & Virus SW will econamy cruise at about 120 knots for a fuel burn of around 13-14L/hr ULP.

 

Both Faeta & Virus have about 300 kg empty weight -  Faeta 600 kg TO Virus SW 472.5 kg and can carry 100L ULP.

 

The principal of ATEC recently died, so I don't know if new aircraft are available - if not check out the preloved market (Europe nearly always has a few for sale  - don't forget to add the cost of shipping/import). Note : EU Faeta may have smaller fuel capacity & lower TO weight.

 

Pipistrel was bought out by Textron (American) and suddenly (without apparent engine/aerodynamic changes ) the Virus SW went from a 27 Knot stall  - High speed cruise of 135 knots  (NASA CAFE Competition figures) to Stall not given - High speed cruise  of 160 Knots???? If you drill down a bit the Cruise comes back to a slightly more be believable 147 Knots (still a tad on the high side).

 

The Faeta was always much cheapener to purchase than the Virus SW.

 

😈

 

he wants to support an aussie company.  jabs are a good aircraft and cheap to own. parts can be delivered overnight.

you keep praising atec but you sold yours and bought a sonex

[skippydiesel]

25 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

he wants to support an aussie company.  jabs are a good aircraft and cheap to own. parts can be delivered overnight.

you keep praising atec but you sold yours and bought a sonex

I think I did support Jab - nothing to do with being Australian, its just a good solid aircraft. That does not mean that, in my experince, there are aircraft that are better handling, faster & slower & more fuel efficient, all at the same time.

 

I crashed my Zephyr and was unwilling to go through an extended repair period - flying being much more to my liking than building. The new owner has put her back in the air.

 

I tried to purchase a Faeta in Australia. I even bid on an overseas one. Cost and circumstance were against me - much to my regret.

 

I then spent about 2 years pursuing Europa XS aircraft, without luck. I even modified a caravan into an aircraft carrier, in anticipation of the Europa purchase.

 

I wasn't  looking at Sonex, when the one I have now came up - price & performance pretty much as I wanted. I had to compromise on the detachable wings, the devils measurement system and  the construction material (metal) having a strong preference for composite.

 

My Sonex:

• Can cruise considerably faster than both the Faeta or Virus SW, for similar fuel econamy.
• Its stall is also faster (similar to a Jab) so I have lost that incredible short field landing of the ATEC.
• It noisier inside, than a composite aircraft. For the first time I am routinely using an ANC headset.
• Handling is terrific, thats if you like supersensitive. Being neutrally stable/designed for aerobatics, its not what I would call a benign platform - departures from straight & level flight develops quickly.
• Unlike the Zephyr/Faeta,  which have glide performance much like a glider, the Sonex with short stubby wings has comparatively poor glide performance - something that has taken me quite a long time to be comfortable with in my approach to landings.
• With 97L of usable fuel, my Sonex has a similar (3 L less) duration, at  the same power setting as both ATEC & Virus SW.
• Has less payload than the ATEC, similar to the Virus SW & space is at a premium. Its okay though- I packed it to go to Frogs Hollow Fly IN - got everything  stowed  for two nights camping, within W&B - VR failed so I could get there.
• Has a 4in (100mm) tail wheel - it doesn't like soft surfaces and I lack the confidence, at this time, to use full power to lift the tail, when things get a bit bogged down.

In short, I am happy with my Sonex Legacy/Rotax 912ULS/Airmaster CS. No aircraft is perfect, its what you are content with.😈

[BrendAn]

27 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I think I did support Jab - nothing to do with being Australian, its just a good solid aircraft. That does not mean that, in my experince, there are aircraft that are better handling, faster & slower & more fuel efficient, all at the same time.

 

I crashed my Zephyr and was unwilling to go through an extended repair period - flying being much more to my liking than building. The new owner has put her back in the air.

 

I tried to purchase a Faeta in Australia. I even bid on an overseas one. Cost and circumstance were against me - much to my regret.

 

I then spent about 2 years pursuing Europa XS aircraft, without luck. I even modified a caravan into an aircraft carrier, in anticipation of the Europa purchase.

 

I wasn't  looking at Sonex, when the one I have now came up - price & performance pretty much as I wanted. I had to compromise on the detachable wings, the devils measurement system and  the construction material (metal) having a strong preference for composite.

 

My Sonex:

• Can cruise considerably faster than both the Faeta or Virus SW, for similar fuel econamy.
• Its stall is also faster (similar to a Jab) so I have lost that incredible short field landing of the ATEC.
• It noisier inside, than a composite aircraft. For the first time I am routinely using an ANC headset.
• Handling is terrific, thats if you like supersensitive. Being neutrally stable/designed for aerobatics, its not what I would call a benign platform - departures from straight & level flight develops quickly.
• Unlike the Zephyr/Faeta,  which have glide performance much like a glider, the Sonex with short stubby wings has comparatively poor glide performance - something that has taken me quite a long time to be comfortable with in my approach to landings.
• With 97L of usable fuel, my Sonex has a similar (3 L less) duration, at  the same power setting as both ATEC & Virus SW.
• Has less payload than the ATEC, similar to the Virus SW & space is at a premium. Its okay though- I packed it to go to Frogs Hollow Fly IN - got everything  stowed  for two nights camping, within W&B - VR failed so I could get there.
• Has a 4in (100mm) tail wheel - it doesn't like soft surfaces and I lack the confidence, at this time, to use full power to lift the tail, when things get a bit bogged down.

In short, I am happy with my Sonex Legacy/Rotax 912ULS/Airmaster CS. No aircraft is perfect, its what you are content with.😈

The 2 sonex owners I know love them.  Great post

[Blueadventures]

The Vixxen A32 is probably the better aircraft in the 600kg group compared to the Jab 230D in my opinion;  you say you have flown 32's and the 22's; and also worth noting is the 230D empty weight is in the 270 Kg range and the A32 is 320kg so have around a 50kg plus for the crew, fuel and other cargo weight.  (Vixxen A32 is 280kg available and 230D has 230kg available)  The Jab 230D can carry in excess than a MTOW of 600kg and good for the new Class 'G' group.  

Edited Thursday at 12:51 PM by Blueadventures

[skippydiesel]

12 hours ago, BrendAn said:

The 2 sonex owners I know love them.  Great post

FYI - My Sonex Legacy,  not quite completed plans built, came from Leongatha,  Gippsland. The converted caravan/aircraft carrier, came in useful, as was used to transport  the Sonex all the way back to The Oaks, NSW.

 

There seems to be a "flock" of Sonex in Vic / SA.

 

😈

[madhatter]

On 10/07/2025 at 8:51 AM, Blueadventures said:

The Vixxen A32 is probably the better aircraft in the 600kg group compared to the Jab 230D in my opinion;  you say you have flown 32's and the 22's; and also worth noting is the 230D empty weight is in the 270 Kg range and the A32 is 320kg so have around a 50kg plus for the crew, fuel and other cargo weight.  (Vixxen A32 is 280kg available and 230D has 230kg available)  The Jab 230D can carry in excess than a MTOW of 600kg and good for the new Class 'G' group.  

Empty weight of 230D is more like 380 kg

[madhatter]

One of the reasons I bought the 230D is I was told by the distributor that when MOSAIC was completed it was his information that the gross weight would be allowed to increase.  I hope this will be the case as my empty weight is 883 lbs. To be legal at this time my fuel load must be minimal. If Jabiru doesn’t do this , then I feel that Jabiru will not survive in the US. MOSAIC allows the manufacturer to make this decision for LSA and ELSA.  If Jabiru does not do this then that tells me that Jabiru does not support their past sales and there will be no trust in future sales. Just requiring a new purchase for the weight increase will not do it. Also the added issue of the crankshaft problem does not help. I hope this is not the case. I have asked Jabiru au but received no response. Just my opinion. 

[skippydiesel]

6 hours ago, madhatter said:

One of the reasons I bought the 230D is I was told by the distributor that when MOSAIC was completed it was his information that the gross weight would be allowed to increase.  I hope this will be the case as my empty weight is 883 lbs. To be legal at this time my fuel load must be minimal. If Jabiru doesn’t do this , then I feel that Jabiru will not survive in the US. MOSAIC allows the manufacturer to make this decision for LSA and ELSA.  If Jabiru does not do this then that tells me that Jabiru does not support their past sales and there will be no trust in future sales. Just requiring a new purchase for the weight increase will not do it. Also the added issue of the crankshaft problem does not help. I hope this is not the case. I have asked Jabiru au but received no response. Just my opinion. 

Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about MOSAIC and what it takes for an aircraft builder to allow higher take-off weight.

 

Seems to me that for any aircraft, big & small, there will be a safe Max TO weight that is not determined by legislation, economics, customer service or the sales department but by the limitations of physics. If your  aircraft is at this limit , thats it!😈

[madhatter]

The 230D has a design weight of 1675 lbs. but is limited to 1320 to meet LSA requirements. If a 230D is built as a kit the owner has the option for 1320 or 1675. The 230D was built as a 4 seater (J430)  but restricted to 2 seats to fit LSA.

Edited Sunday at 11:09 PM by madhatter
Added info

[BurnieM]

Often it is not about what it was designed for but how difficult/expensive is it to do the new paperwork.

 

[djpacro]

2 hours ago, madhatter said:

The 230D has a design weight of 1675 lbs. but is limited to 1320 to meet LSA requirements.

Australia's rules for LSA are unique to Australia. Europe is different. USA even more. 

https://www.australianflying.com.au/recreational/raaus-to-go-the-full-mosaic good to be optimistic but .....

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, madhatter said:

The 230D has a design weight of 1675 lbs. but is limited to 1320 to meet LSA requirements. If a 230D is built as a kit the owner has the option for 1320 or 1675. The 230D was built as a 4 seater (J430)  but restricted to 2 seats to fit LSA.

Fair enough.

 

Dont know about the US however in Australia the builder can nominate any TO weight he/she feels is appropriate.

NOTE: Most builders will go with the factory recommended Max.

 

Speculation on the Jab 230D/J430 fitted with standard Jab 120 hp engine; I am not sure that your example serves your argument well. I would suggest the 4 seat variant, will have marginal TO performance,  with 4 adult Pax on board. Then there are high density altitude days, that may make the marginal TO performance close to lethal 😈

[madhatter]

Going ELSA voids the liability for Jabiru which I am willing to do. I guess the answer will come soon as the rule will be finalized next month.

I think the 230D is a great aircraft but at this time the LSA payload is one of the worst of all LSA aircraft. With two 175 lb people you can only have 14 gal fuel and nothing else.

 

[madhatter]

7 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Fair enough.

 

Dont know about the US however in Australia the builder can nominate any TO weight he/she feels is appropriate.

NOTE: Most builders will go with the factory recommended Max.

 

Speculation on the Jab 230D/J430 fitted with standard Jab 120 hp engine; I am not sure that your example serves your argument well. I would suggest the 4 seat variant, will have marginal TO performance,  with 4 adult Pax on board. Then there are high density altitude days, that may make the marginal TO performance close to lethal 😈

The 1675 is the factory recommended weight. The J430 has been around for a long time.

[Blueadventures]

38 minutes ago, madhatter said:

The 1675 is the factory recommended weight. The J430 has been around for a long time.

1675 lb is 759.7kg and will fit the Australian RAAus new class 'G' two seats (MTOW 760 kg).

Edited yesterday at 02:35 AM by Blueadventures

[Area-51]

The Jabiru are a very capable robust and solid platform; easily serviced and widely supported; and they get up and move when needed. Its a good all rounder aircraft. The larger 4 seater has an amazing load carrying capacity; with the rear occupant seats removed it becomes a mini flying camper van. Throw some tundra tyres on and you are ready to go places.

 

In comparison, based upon real world recorded study results, a 912ULS Europa Classic Mono with a three blade 68" diameter ground adjustable prop, if tuned to best operating efficiency, will deliver the following:

 

+4.5/-2.5 G

BEW 325kg

Cabin Width 1.0m

Fuel 76L Max / 110L Long Range

MTOW 554kg Regulated / 620kg Design Limit

Nominal take off run to unstick (one up)

Tarmac 70m,

Short Dry Grass 120m -

Departure & Climb (fully loaded) Vy 1300fpm @ 105kt,

Vx 1100fpm @ 80kt

Vs0 45kt

Vs1 53kt

Vno 130kt

Vne 165kt

Best Glide 12:1 at 73kt @ 260fpm DR

Best Duration 35% power 75kt (7L/hr)

Holding Speed 45% power 95kt (8L/hr)

Best Range Speed 60% power 115kt (10.5L/hr)

Best Forward Speed 75% power 125kt (13L/hr)

Max Sustained Forward Speed 80% power 130kt (18L/hr) 152kt TAS @ FL10 ISA

Max Forward Speed WOT 140kt (25L/hr)

 

Again, the Jabiru are a good all rounder.

[skippydiesel]

Area-51,

 

If your doing a comparison, it may be helpful to have a second column with the performance of the Jab being considered. Just saying

 

Would I be correct in thinking the Europa XS (Mono) has better performance again? 

 

 

😈

[Area-51]

40 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Area-51,

 

If your doing a comparison, it may be helpful to have a second column with the performance of the Jab being considered. Just saying

 

Would I be correct in thinking the Europa XS (Mono) has better performance again? 

 

 

😈

The person wanting to compare can learn how to create a data column as a self development exercise.

 

The Mono is what it is; factory kit build with no special extra bells and whistles attached. An 80hp version is underpowered for the airframe's performance demands on take off due to the full flap situation. The 100hp hauls its ass through and beyond the drag curve onto VTOSS departure and Acceleration phases without batting an eyelid, maintaining a full flap climb out to 500' at 75kt if required at about 1000fpm one up. Comes up pretty quick and easy to exceed 80kt Vfe if you fall behind the aircraft. So best to just increase attitude to 65kt and then reorganise the brain again.

[skippydiesel]

"The Mono is what it is; factory kit build with no special extra bells and whistles attached........"

 

Not exactly what I would see as enthusiastic promotion of the Europa line (an aircraft I have long admired).

 

"The person wanting to compare can learn how to create a data column as a self development exercise."

 

Nor a very helpful response to the " In comparison,..." you seemed to be offering but did not deliver on.

 

😈