octave Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 One dead in NSW plane crash A man has been killed in a plane crash at Moruya on the south coast of New South Wales. Police say the man was flying in a single engine plane and performing air acrobatics before his plane crashed on a beach near Moruya airport at about 1.30pm AEST. The man was the only person on board. Police and ambulance crews are at the scene. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the accident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numptie Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Sad news indeed. Happened just after I left so I have no details to add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted May 31, 2008 Author Share Posted May 31, 2008 moruya crash A pilot was killed when his plane crashed during an aeronautical display on the NSW south coast on Saturday afternoon. Police said the single-engined plane went down at a beach on the south coast seaside town of Moruya about 1.30pm (AEST). "The solo pilot was doing acrobatics before the crash," a NSW police spokesman said. "He died at the scene." Several witnesses will be interviewed by police and a report will be prepared for the coroner. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau will investigate the cause of the crash. A Civil Aviation Safety Authority spokesman Peter Gibson said it was difficult to say whether a mechanical fault was to blame for the crash. "The aircraft itself is a Nanchang, which is an ex-military Chinese training aircraft," Mr Gibson told Macquarie Radio. "A number of them are now being operated privately in Australia and people use them for joyflights as well." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 An eyewitness reported: A low, high speed pass down 05, pull-up and attempted wing over, stalled the lower wing and into the dunes nose right down. Immediately followed by a fierce fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numptie Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 I know a lot of people do that in Nanchangs at Moruya but is that what happened here or are you speculating? Nothing has really been said in any of the reports. This was reported on ABC website: 'The Australian Warbirds Association has confirmed that one of its members was killed in a plane crash on the New South Wales south coast on Saturday. Graeme Camage, 54, was performing aerobatics in a small ex-military plane when he lost control and crashed on a beach near Moruya. The association says Mr Camage was a long time member and was an importer of the Nanchang plane that he was flying. Association president Stephen Crocker says members are extremely saddened by the incident. "He was one of the early members of the association and helped build it to what it is today and was a keen supporter and flyer of the aircraft," he said. The association says it will provide assistance to the family and investigating authorities. Police say Mr Camage was an experienced pilot and it is not clear why the plane crashed. He was the only person on board and died from injuries at the scene. Investigations into the cause of the crash are continuing.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Matt and I talked to Graeme a number of times at Canberra, he was always friendly and helpful and offered his hanger amenities to us. Our heartfelt condolences to his family and friends. Another couple of news report... http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23792152-5001021,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Numptie, this is eye witness account but 2nd hand. was there Sat. and Sun. Sad truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Illyria Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Allow the investigation to occur and let the EXPERTs decide on the cause rather than the armchair wannabe's. This man was peoples friend and collegue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Dear all, I treat this forum as a semi-private discorse medium for the free interchange of legitimate comment by aviators for aviators. Anything that I post on this site is purely directed in this vein. I don't take any persons death lightly. If a mistake in airmanship is possibly the cause of this dreadful accident then we can all learn from it. why shouild the lesson be any less valuable now than in possibly a year or more time. this forum is not open to the general public and I think that responsible people can treaty these matters with dignity. If you want to insult people I suggest this place is the wrong place for you. Kind regards, Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 learning about possible causes for problems and how to avoid doing the same is invaluable and may have already, or will save my skin one day - All brought about by speculation and discussion about an incident reported here. I'd rather read about the need to check all fuel valves, be aware of wind gusts on flaring or not to attempt stall turns at low altitude and do something to correct that behavior if I have it, now rather than be politically correct and pretend that it didn't happen and learn about the official findings in the afterlife. Maybe the pilot did or maybe the pilot didn't do what was speculated. The reality is someone will always be close to the person or persons involved and that is unfortunate, but a fact of life. Speculating and discussing possible causes may, no, will save a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Yes - Illyria's post was modded, as was your reference to it ahlocks. I have had a word with Illyria about personal abuse. As you say ahlocks, there will always be someone who knows the deceased, so we should all keep that in mind and discuss accidents with respect. In this case, I think everyone did that, and the speculation was not idle or ill-informed. Methusala was passing on an eye-witness account. He did not state that initially, and that would have been useful information. Numptie asked for clarification and received it. They also PM'd each other to remove any misunderstanding. This is how issues should be dealt with. A very sad incident. If there is any information available it should be shared in the interest of safety. If you don't have information, be careful and respectful with any speculation. As we know, investigations take time, and even longer for the results to be published. Learning lessons from other's mistakes is vital . We won't live long enough to make them all ourselves. (of course, this incident wasn't necessarily a mistake) Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Thanks for the update Ross. Open group discussion and speculation is a major component of the investigations I am involved with. Theories are suggested and then investigated for evidence to prove or disprove the theory as a normal part of making a determination. Admittedly, the persons involved with the incident are not usually privvy to these discussions but if they are, tact and diplomacy is paramount. What I see on these forums is a similar process being carried out by enlightened individuals gathering anecdotal evidence and discussing possible causes. Not "armchair wannabees" trying to be experts and laying blame. The 'experts' will provide a final determination in due course. In the interim, discussion here, while not necessarily in regard to this particular thread, will set minds to question their own practices and ability to avoid their being involved in a similar circumstance to the incident being discussed. That is a good thing, whether politically correct or not. It's late and I've had my 'spray' so off for some snores. Sorry if I've offended anyone. Cheers! Steven B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Illyria Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 The thing about investigations is that the discussion and the speculation is done behind closed doors by people who are trained in the particular fields of aviation, engineering and whatever else is necessary. Years ago I worked on an accident investigation team, I know exactly what and how they work (Military though). Public speculation by those of us who lack the combination of those skills is harmful to the industry and and in some cases defamatory to the pilot. The pilot in question cannot defend himself and we do not have the benefit of all the facts as CASA will have during their investigation. You know, it's bad enough fighting against the ever increasing faction that would have all warbirdz grounded without adding fuel to the fire with negative idle speculation about causes & effects we know nothing about at this stage. It just moves us one step closer to never seeing these planes in the sky again, something that the pilot of this Nanchang would not have liked to see. It's far to early to start the i know more than you do game. I admit, I know nothing other than the plane crashed and the pilot died. I'm happy to leave it there until the facts are released by CASA. The post above that I responded to was taken from this forum and posted elsewhere on the internet, thus enabling more idle speculation and some peopel take this stuff as fact, we all know human nature. On a personal note, lets at least bury the guy first huh? He wasn't my friend, he was someone I had met. My husband considered him a friend, the second friend lost in a number of months. These losses hit hard and to read comments inferring pilot error at this early stage are hurtful and IMO serve no benefit to the general public or other pilots although I do agree the final report will serve good benefit. and Moderator. My apologies, I did not come to cause trouble in your forum, I will now leave you guys alone :) I stand by my comment that you've done a great job here, don't spoil it by turning it into a site for rumour, innuendo and virtual chest beating ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelorus32 Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Whilst not wanting to inflame this debate, I'd like to make a comment about the discussion. Increasingly I fall on the side of "let's wait till the investigation is done". That wasn't always the case but it is increasingly the case now. Why? With most accidents, if it happens that the reason is obvious early on, then idle speculation will generally tell us nothing that our training hasn't already; Otherwise the only way we will get decent answers is to wait for the report. Speculating here, beyond a brief description of the event serves no useful purpose, and as we have seen it can be highly inflammatory. I've already lost a family member this year in a mid-air. Three people died in that accident and I for one have no interest in speculating or in reading speculation. There is little if anything that speculation will tell me about that accident that I shouldn't already have been trained to be aware of. Obviously if there is an airworthiness issue we'd like to know that early in the process. However speculation here is not going to get us those answers. As an aside airworthiness issues are probably the least reason for accidents. The one thing that does trouble me is the utter lack of timeliness about the investigation and reporting process. Six to ten months seems to be quite long enough to get a report out in almost all cases (Lockhart River type cases excepted). We could also learn a great deal from the BA777 accident investigation where the AAIB has issued updates at regular intervals. Enough now. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 ......I did not come to cause trouble in your forum, I will now leave you guys alone :) I stand by my comment that you've done a great job here, don't spoil it by turning it into a site for rumour, innuendo and virtual chest beating ... Yes, I read the thread on pprune too. You will need to add virtual 'johnson measurement' contests if a comparison is to be made to there... If I may be so forward Illyria, stick around. I think you will enjoy the company here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Apologies Illyria- I have just spotted the part of Don's post which could be considered idle speculation and possibly offensive. I'll remove that too. Long day of driving and flying, then 4 birthday parties when I got home. That's my excuse. As ahlocks says, stick around. I think you'll find it a little more useful than pprune. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Apologies Illyria- I have just spotted the part of Don's post which could be considered idle speculation and possibly offensive. I'll remove that too.Ross I think that was the problem part of the post too. I feel that it was exasperation over the loss of another life being expressed, rather than being critical or offensive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigPete Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Damm - there's some good people on this forum. :thumb_up: Well done guys and girls for working it out. We all win. As aviators we all feel a certain loss when one of us departs. We all know that someday it could be you or I. this forum is a wonderful tool. And it works. :big_grin: regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Perhaps someone should review the psychology behind why every time there is an incident posted on this or the 'other' forum, it more often than not ends in a slanging match. I wonder why this is? Is it because everyone wants to believe that the story they heard is the most accurate? Everyone wants to be an expert on air crash investigations? Just wondering :raise_eyebrow: I've probably been guilty of it myself on the odd occasion, particularly if I have first hand information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Speculation. Whatever the reason, it seems to be the most "normal thing in the world". No pilot likes to hear of an accident, but there is always the need to "know". It has a fascination of it's own. The inordinate amount of time for any meaningful report to come out compounds the problem. ....Subconsciously, every pilot wants to believe that accidents only happen to other people, and they look for a reason that it won't apply to them. Sometimes this may make them more careful. Nev.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest High Plains Drifter Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Many years ago I was one of the first on the scene of a training fatality. The instructer survived. I did not witness the prang. The wife and freinds of the deceased where still at the hanger when I got back from the prang. They were unaware of the acciedent. As I did not know them I said nothing. Question; When I got back to the hanger, should I have started to idly speculate to others and the late pilots wife about what I thought caused the prang ? ... even later, when the wife knew of the acciedent, would I idly speculate to others in front of the late pilots wife ? I dont know who reads this forum, so I assume the 'wife' could be reading this now. 'Trained' reporters with the media constantly make fools of them selves reporting and speculating on aircraft prangs - thats probably speculation enuf. I wonder if some of the encouragement for this speculating isnt just to get more 'traffic' (posts) thru the forum ? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Perhaps death is still such a taboo subject that by forbidding discussion of it, we can reject our own mortality. Or more likely a sense of compassion for those involved and observing an old custom of speaking in hushed tones or behind closed doors. I dunno really. People will find reason to argue over anything and everything, and all from the comfort of their own homes...such is the 'interweb', be it for better or worse.:black_eye: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 HPD I have mucked around with relatively "dangerous" sports since I was old enough to buy petrol, and thru numerous forms of car and motorcycle track and road racing I have put a number of my friends into survival positions while waiting for ambulances or choppers A number did not survive ..... but in every case their wives or families have always wanted to know what happened almost immediately, and I know that I have been the same when those close to me have been injured. When dealing with family and friends after a fatal or near fatal I have always started by saying that we can never to sure, but based on the little we know, here is what we think happened. I have always thought that better than saying "wait for the coroner's and pathologist's report in 6 or 12 months", ..... and so did they. But also see TOSG's related post in "Incidents and Accidents" where this is discussed further. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Moruya crash... I was going to leave this alone but feel now the need to defend myself against certain terminology. In my most humble self I must protest innocence against the charge levelled against me : that of "idle speculation". I did NOT speculate. I reported bare facts as agreed by several people who witnessed the event. If an opinion that it could have been prevented is seen by some as offensive then I withdraw my comment but I don't disown it. Every accident I'm aware of in the last 18 months has been debated on this forum. There are always people who say, "leave it alone, don't talk about it". But we always do. There are always at least 2 opinions on every topic, that is natural. What I don't want to see is censorship of appropriate discussion. If you are offended, then just disagree. I kept most of my argument to PM's. Please feel free to PM me if you have strong dissent. Regards to all, Don.:thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numptie Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Thanks for your last post Don. I believe this all started because I simply raised the question of whether or not this was fact or speculation. You promptly cleared the point up and we have PMed each other to make sure we were fine with it. The thread has been reviewed by a moderator and he believes the content is fine now. I think this thread has degenerated a bit now and shifted focus to something it wasn't meant to be. I wonder if we can all change the focus of this thread back to its original intent ... dealing with the facts (as have been presented) and passing on our words of sadness and condolences. Lets have the other discussion on the 'Philosophy of posting on this forum' thread or another appropraite thread. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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