K-man Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Yesterday was a beautiful day for a fly so we decided to meet up with some friends for lunch a Phillip Island. :thumb_up: To get a little familiar with other strips and conditions and to allow an extra t/o and landing for each pilot we called in at YTDN on the way down and YTYA on the way home. Approaching Tyab my wife gave a 10 mile inbound call which was followed by an inbound call from a C172 which gave its position as 200m metres behind and 500' above (keep in mind the 172 is 5 to 10 kts slower than our aircraft), over French Island. Naturally we are looking everywhere for this aircraft. To let him know where we were we gave an early joining oblique downwind call thinking we must have been well ahead by now. He responded by saying he was mid downwind. We still had not sighted him so my wife decided to turn away, circle and rejoin behind the C172 which she did. The 172 was now in sight and we followed it in. The issue is this. The 172 pilot made at least one call from the wrong location. He gave no downwind join call and his calls all followed our calls. In my mind we were at all times in front of him until we aborted our approach to ensure our safety. We changed pilots and set off home to YLIL. Established on downwind in the circuit and another aircraft flies in from the right joining mid-field crosswind cutting in in front downwind, forcing us to slow and extend downwind to gain separation. I deliberately have not described the second aircraft. Suffice to say it is VH registered. Isn't is interesting that in one afternoon our safety was threatened by two GA registered aircraft flown by two young PPL pilots who for whatever reason felt that they had the right to push ahead of an RA registered aircraft. We were not in a hurry and were not put out but there seems to be an attitude problem out there. Any-one else had similar experiences? We normally fly mid-week, is this the weekend way to fly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Maybe its the PPL way to say, Hey i'm a GA aircraft with higher qualifications and I have right of way when it comes to those little Recreational aircraft....:confused: They probably think they have to stand out some where, problem is that ain't gonna work...without causing problems.... I think thats actually a part of good airmanship (being polite that is)... its no good being a great pilot and have a pushey personality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefootpilot Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Pretty typical of weekend GA pilot. Numbers have to give way to letters don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Macnoz Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Let’s not get carried away with a sense of self importance or distinction. Do you think for one moment that the lack of airmanship displayed in the stories related above was as a result of discrimination against RAA craft or certified rather than licensed pilots? Another craft cutting you off in the circuit didn’t see you -- guaranteed – not that they saw you had 6 numbers rather than 5 letters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 ...Let’s not get carried away with a sense of self importance or distinction... Pretty much sums it up. aye wot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Airmanship, common courtesy or common sense, quite a few months back I flew from WSL to Tyabb for a brekky with the wife and a few other trikes, all inbound and joining circut calls made correctly and what did I have happen while on mid downwind you ask??, well nothing more than a tiger moth with no calls made overhead Tyabb deciding to spin from about 1500 ft down to my 500ft circut height right infront of me, did it impress me, ?? na kinda me off a bit but I gave way for the better part for the love of breathing and a continuation of flying later on, mighta impressed the crowd of people at the airport but sure as XXXXe didn't impress some poor old triker like me. Did I complain to someone from the airport, Na I'm only a trike pilot so I didn't think I would make too many friends down there if it did, had a nice brekky and high tailed it out to live another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 The second one sounds like he didn't see/ hear you.. The first guy sounds a bit strange.. Its hard to say what happend when i wasnt there, but, did you (or your wife) give any other calls??...requesting the position of the other acft and more importantly did he have you sighted still?? I think (and this is my opinion only) that when faced with this sort of situation we need to fly as predictably as possible..ie, a normal curcuit instead of an oblique downwind, and staying the course not turning out of the cct.. and get on that radio, don't be scared to give a call thats not in the book.. A worse case scenario is that this guy was still up your clacka and you turned straight into him... There's crazzies evrywhere (both ga and raa) we should try not to let them force us into eronious or unpredictable flying... I know its a terrible feeling being on the same leg of a cct with an acft you can't see, so i can understand your urge to bug out.... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hideehodee Alf, just a quick thought the Tiger might not have had a radio. It is legal to do so unless a CTAFR, it's also legal to spin to 500 foot if the pilot is so endorsed. It was good of you to look and be aware that is for all of us to do and also good of you to give way to him so you would'nt collide. That's what flying is all about, feel the love Alf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 it's also legal to spin to 500 foot if the pilot is so endorsed The approval comes with a number of conditions plus the relevant regulations. Doesn't seem to make sense to me to be over a busy airfield, spinning down that low with no advice over the radio. Maybe he/she had a good reason eg practicing for their air display - doesn't negate the need to adhere to good practice such as an observer on the ground looking for other traffic in addition to radio calls. alf jessup, even if not complaining, it would've been worth a chat to the local CFI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 I wasn't defending the behaiviour of the Tiger flying I was saying what he did could have been quite legal. Good airmanship is basically good manners and common flying sense. Terminating a spin over the field at 500' is not, neither would four trikes strung out one K apart taking ten minutes to fly a two miles circuit land and backtrack (I'm not saying this was done but I have seen it). Common sense with good manners toward your fellow aviator no matter if he flys a minimum machine, GA or Regional Airliner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I couldn't say why this happens but on a regular basis we'll come across small C172's and other aircraft doing coastal beat up's while we're also flying coastal operations on the job. 90% of the time these smaller aircraft never make calls in or around the small tows that they're flying around so we'll bump into them. But our pilots are always on the CTAF freq's at least 15nm out from any location. Even with the callsign "Customs XXX" they hardly ever respond. I think it's just complacency of those GA pilots towards other aircraft in general. Just need to keep up in the calls and keep an ear and eye out. That's something I'll be teaching my wife to do when we're flying as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Respond. R461, hope you don't "bump into them". THEY are not actually required to respond or acknowledge your transmission, and I recall coming to a quite busy fly-in and had made 2 calls at least, and was starting to wonder if my radio was working, when somebody told me that there was an aerobatic display right over the strip and that I should extend downwind, (certainly a good idea under the circumstances.). Sometimes there is too much irrelevent chatter by long-winded (if well intentioned people), and that that just clutters the airwaves. The thing that "gets" me , is when someone gives a position in the circuit, (which is incorrect) because you have a look and they are nowhere to be seen, and when you question them to verify,(nicely) there is never any response. That doesn't do much to ease your workload, and you have to wonder about their general competance.. Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I couldn't say why this happens but on a regular basis we'll come across small C172's and other aircraft doing coastal beat up's while we're also flying coastal operations on the job. What do you call a beat up? The general consensus seems to be a low level (under 100') with a pull. What height do you folks normally fly at? I would have thought even a patrol height wouldn't go below 500' if closer inspection is required you may fly lower or use some of that "Gear" you have on board to have a closer look. It is OK to fly at 500' (not over a built up area) in a GA and RAA Aircraft without radio, I'm not saying it's good practice but it happens. That's why keeping a lookout is good practice and airmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brett Campany Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Yeah Nev, we've had a couple of close calls on occasion, I mean we're pretty big and fly with all lights on when we're working but still have the occasional close call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Good points Nev, you posted same time as me so I missed them. I'll agree you can over use the radio and make things worse, I'll also agree on the circuit stuff as well, there's nothing worse than a regional calling downwind 8 miles out because he (or she) percieves if they get their call in first they have priority, it doesn't work that way. The best response is to check with them if it is them 8 miles out and to tell them to call again abeam the threashold. I'll have to say most RAA, GA and Airline people are very well mannered and work in togeather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewen McPhee Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I sometimes wonder about the power of radios we use, the positioning of the aerials and the fact that we are at a lower altitude; all of which will affect the line of site with other a/c. Had a problem with Sunstate chipping me recently. On the way back from a nav I did a 10 mile call, a Five Mile then a joining circuit call. Sunstate pilot was departing and complained that he didn't hear any of my calls. Mind you he was chatting away to an Ag pilot most of the time I was coming in so there was no space for more calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I wasn't defending the behaiviour of the Tiger flying I was saying what he did could have been quite legal ..... I agree with all you said, SP, I just wanted to note that it may not have been legal (I'm assuming that the pilot had approval to do aerobatics down to 500 ft). Regardless, something wasn't right with the situation. As alf jessup indicated, at a strange airfield it is not easy to find a way or the right person to simply discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 A couple of points to ponder here. Could GA pilots be rusty on radio procedures because they fly less hours than RAA pilots? Radio cannot be relied on. Here at Rodds Bay we are 15nm. from Gladstone. Gladstone is CTAF® 118.8 and of course we are CTAF 126.7 The problem is that Gladstone traffic tends not to think of us or doesn't know we exist, so they go over the top on 118.8. We have even had a helicopter dashing all over and around us, until I called him up on 118.8 and told him he was over a strip using 126.7 I cannot see any way out of our unique situation so we are all very careful around here. I like to listen on area frequency to see if any RPTs are coming in before I take off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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