Roundsounds

Maybe so, what I’m trying to understand is what are we being protected against and how will ASICs do so?

An odd remark, I asked a couple of pretty straightforward questions. As stated I’ve been out of GA instructing during the introduction of ADSB and other traffic awareness devices and was curious as to what’s being trained around SA. I find the contrast in RT at Class G airports from the early 2000s and now to be quite marked. It got me thinking as to why, it seems pilots now don’t build a mental traffic model, they rely on constant broadcasts and more recently tech devices requiring head down attention for collision avoidance. The tech devices should enhance safety, but when used inappropriately may in fact reduce safety. I find the practice of a taxi, line up, rolling, airborne, turning crosswind, downwind, mid downwind, base, final, short final, clear of the runway (whilst still on the flight strip) to be common broadcasts with some pilots making all of them.

Exactly was is it the security experts are protecting the country from? Is it; - a 911 style event? - smuggling illegal items through freight / baggage areas? - a rouge Easter bunny? or is it to support the security / bureaucrats jobs? The last time I drove past a regional security controlled airport an access gate was wide open and unattended. ASICs are a wasted effort, it’s about time RAAus and AOPA made a decent effort to have a sensible alternative developed for GA / Sport Av ops.

I’m trying to gauge what people are taught and practice in regards to collision avoidance. I’ve been out of the GA instructing scene for quite a few years. I still fly GA and note a big increase in what I would consider unnecessary RT in class G. I still jot down call signs / type, it’s how I was trained and continue to practice. I find it helps me develop and maintain a mental picture of traffic. As you’ve mentioned, there are often comm’s between aircraft who do not pose any risk to each other and I hear routine broadcasts way in excess of those recommended, the majority of which do not increase safety. It seems the practice of developing any type of mental picture has been replaced by overuse of RT and some dubious traffic awareness devices. Technology is wonderful if used appropriately. Many of the posts on this and other forums makes me believe there’s simply no training or desire to gain knowledge around the appropriate use and limitations of traffic awareness technology. I started this discussion in an attempt gauge the current approach to traffic awareness / collision avoidance, particularly around airports. I don’t have an opinion on how it should be done.

Lots of comments about circuit entry, I’m keen to learn how people develop and maintain their situational awareness (SA) of other traffic? Or do you rely on updated SA when you make a broadcast and hope other traffic respond?

In this example you’re saying the first you knew of the traffic was when they broadcast their crosswind entry? Wouldn’t you have heard their 10 mile inbound call with an estimate for the circuit!

I’m looking to apply for an ASIC renewal, but note you need to demonstrate an operational need to hold one. As the holder of a pilot licence you should be operating on a regular basis from a security controlled airport. I see the last edition of Sport Pilot an article mentioned there’s going to be closer scrutiny around ASICs. Given I’m not regularly operating from a security controlled aerodrome I was considering an AVID. Has anyone else tried an AVID in lieu of an ASIC and arranging for the ARO to escort them on the occasions they fly into an aerodrome requiring an ASIC?

Do you receive any training on the appropriate use of ADSB devices? When I say training I mean technical and human factors type training? Or do you just work it out as you go?

How do you remember the call signs for each aircraft if you want to call them?

Just curious as to how many people use a note pad and pen to record traffic info’? Also wondering if / how building a mental picture of traffic around airfields is currently being trained and whether traffic information systems are included in any training? In particular how the systems operate and any limitations associated with them.

You cannot do any better than Skyfuel. Their service is second to none, they’ll freight it to you.

What would you consider pro-spin inputs to be?

Maybe I’m misreading Apen’s original post. He seems scared he might stall a non spin certified airplane and end up in a spin unintentionally. I stand by my comments regarding a lack of understanding of the aerodynamics associated with a spin entry. You would need to make deliberate control inputs to enter a spin. Don’t make those control inputs and you won’t spin, if you happen to apply the inputs required to enter a spin, know the inputs required to prevent the spin developing. The concern around stalling / spinning displayed by the majority of pilots is the direct result of poor instruction. I’ve flown with many instructors over the years who are terrified of stalling, let alone spinning. A couple of flying schools who trained instructors sent their instructor candidates to me for the “advanced stalling” sequences because the instructor trainers wouldn’t deliver the training.

If you are scared of stalling it must be through lack of understanding. There is very little to no chance of an aeroplane entering an unintentional spin to a properly trained pilot. Entry to an unintentional spin would be the result of incorrect control inputs during stall recovery, this would not happen to a properly trained / educated pilot. You should see some instruction from a suitably experienced and qualified flight instructor to resolve your issue.

Don’t try that in a Pitts, Victa Airtourer or Beech Bonanza. The rule of thumb I use in these types is to toss a house brick out the window and follow it.

ATC can only “see” certified ADSB equipment output. Sky echo etc are simply toys from the regulators perspective.

This will simply create a lower level of lookout. The Metro crew likely weren’t looking out as they were in CTA and assumed a lookout being not needed. What happens to the aircraft not fitted with ADSB out, they become invisible to the ADSB crowd. Pilots using tech for separation will spend time staring at their screens, EFIS flight instruments and written checklists at the expense of a proper lookout. im not against technology, but am against technology without proper training. The HF implications around this equipment is serious stuff and is simply ignored.

Like a transponder?

How much technology and procedures do people need? If the money had been equipped with Mode C the TCAS might have alerted the crew of the Metro. If the Metro Crew had maintained a lookout they might have avoided the accident. If the Mooney pilot and instructor hadn’t wandered into CTA the accident eg wouldn’t have occurred. If the Air Traffic controller had fulfilled their obligations the accident might have been avoided. Sometime stuff happens.

Hi Nev, you’re spot on Re the lack of attitude reference. I completed the initial test flight in one about 20 years ago, I resorted to glancing at the wings initially. You did get used to it, I wasn’t that keen on the lack of cockpit!

Just use 1/2 flap for the approach when doing touch and goes. When I had a flying school I banned flap retraction on the runway when moving (mitigates the risks associated with inadvertent gear retraction and ground loops) . I had a standard operating procedure to use takeoff flap when conducting touch and goes, but also taught full flap go-arounds including after touch down. The aircraft are certified for full flap go arounds.

The resultant roll from yaw is due mainly to dihedral, not one wing travelling faster than the other. I’m talking typical GA trainer, not airplanes with swept wings.

A proper understanding of the aerodynamics associated with un-coordinated flight would be a good start. The fear you mentioned is related to the lack of understanding. The BS taught as to why an aeroplane rolls when yawed constantly amazes me.

I would estimate at least 70% of pilots I completed tailwheel endorsements with would have completed skidding turns at some point. Most frequently on a marginal glide approach, trying to stretch the glide, minimise bank angle and away they’d go. The offenders were of all levels of experience. Whenever I had the chance we would go to altitude and see how close to a stall / spin they’d been. I hope this may have saved a life or two. unfortunately most current training aircraft do not permit this demonstration. The Citabria would have to be one of the best training aeroplanes produced.

Great advice, the other consideration / red flag being anytime you have aileron input and no corresponding roll. This is absolutely the case in the typical base / final turn spin. Many pilots are unaware of the fact they are holding off bank in these turns as the result of incorrect pro turn rudder input, resulting in a skidding turn.