Exadios Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Not in Australia but a crash all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 From a video that actually captured the crashing aircraft:- All the previous aircraft were in a level bank as they passed infront of the crowd, straightened up for a bit, then turned away from the crowd, presumably to cycle around again. Instead of arriving in level flight in front of the crowd in a bank, the aircraft was wings level, but in a 30 degree steepening climb. At about 50 degree climb, the aircraft rolled toward the crowd. Seemed to stop the roll with wings vertical to the ground, but still in a 60 degree climb. It then decreased the climb while continuing to roll to inverted. From this point the aircraft followed the path of a second half of a loop and was lost by the camera when vertical toward the ground. Crash sound only a second or two later. From interview news item, it was protocol to pull up if there was a problem with the aircraft, to get it away from other aircraft. There is some comment about a mayday call, but no detail. edit: Video Linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JRMobile Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Sad day indeed!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Yes it is normal for a racer to pull up and out if there's a mayday drama, it's not unusual for a couple to have to do that on the big races due to overheating. They go straight up to altitude to cool off. That footage shows a pull-up off the corner but who knows, could have been loss of control or pilot incapacitation. Sad indeed....................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Some-one has seen a good image and said that the elevator tab detached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 sad for all involved. I hope the injured recover. I also hope the races continue in the future- some have already said it is the death of Reno. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I also hope the races continue in the future- some have already said it is the death of Reno. Likewise, I hope that there won't be an over-reaction to an isolated incident, however tragic. May cool heads prevail in the next few months as all this is analysed in depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pookemon Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 [ATTACH=full]15052[/ATTACH]real sad , Granted he's travelling at a tremendous speed but would that be enough to lose that much control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pookemon Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Hmmm -looking at the full image on The Age article - the ailerons on that thing were tiny, so I'm guess that'd be more than enough to bring it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I don't think it will end the races, way too big an event and there have been crashes in the past. The site for instance was 'perpetuated' many years ago. The site has been fighting the buildup of housing around the perimeter which keeps imfringing on the course itself, that'll be a danger in the future. Long live the National Championship Air Races !! Lo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I have just seen some of the freeze frames of the crash. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/glanceview/190057/air-show-crash-inflicts-mass-injuries.glance One of the pics shows the side on view of the plane- No pilot is visible. Is it possible he succumbed to G forces well before the incident? The impact pick is shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 [ATTACH=full]15052[/ATTACH]real sad , Re the photo MM: Thank goodness for the person who blew up the photo to indicate the 74 yo pilot was competent and in control. and the cause was a maintenance failure. You would think the penny would drop that one of the most critical maintenance areas in this type of work was the controls, lines and hinges. The public liability payout will be huge, given the number of people injured and killed, and the insurance premium may threaten the event's future. In Australia, corrective action would be to research the trajectory paths which led to the accident, and relocate the spectators out of likely paths, and perhaps further back. We have some small outback speedways where the attendances are maybe 50 people for a 1/4 mile track, and fencing the entire speedway would be prohibitive, so we fence and contain a small section on the straight with an angled approach wall and we have a safe situation. Hopefully there will be a similar answer for Reno, and that may resolve the insurance cost issue. (Moderated) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 To privide complete protection for the audience at a show like this, would simply not be possible. This is a small desert valley covering several square miles in area, with people all over it. You could of course locate the planes so far away as to minimize them ever crashing on people, but that would ruin everything, and then there would not be any show. You go to a show like Reno to be up close, and to have the noise shake your bones. Several race prepared RR Merlins racing at full noise in front of you is spectacular to say the least, and most people are prepared to accept the normally very low risk of injury. No more really than attending any airshow, or Oshkosk for that matter. If we wrap ourselves in cottonwool we may lead a long,safe life, but it would be a very boring one. After viewing the video of the flight prior to impact, and the still of the aircraft showing no pilot visable in the cockpit, it is my opinion that the pilot has suffered a heart attack and slumped over the stick. Had he been in control there would have been more pre-impact evasive action taken, or at least a power reduction of which there was neither. The separated elevator trim-tab could have happened on course prior to him pulling up, and may have caused flutter. This alone at 450+ mph and dot feet would be enough to give anyone a heart-attack. He did call a mayday prior to pull up which is required proceedure, and that tells me he did have some drama on the course itself. Bottom line is we probabily will never really know.... My partner and I throughly enjoyed attending 12 Reno Air Races in the 80s and 90s whilst living in the area. We saw a few accidents in that time, but nothing as bad as this one. It still doesn't dim the fantastic memories of all those years of racing spectacle at Reno...........................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 While i was just starting to read this thread the crash came up on the news with some sickening footage taken from a spectator. They stated that the fatalities risen to 9. Sad day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 My guess would be the pilot was either blacked-out or severly incapacitated prior to impact. The pull-up off the course which was fairly agressive, was probabily the mans' last controlled action. What about the possibility of a seat-back failure ?. Does happen, has happened, and that would put the pilot on his back out of sight as in that pre-impact shot showing no one home in the cockpit. He may not have been able to get back up again, due seat-belt restraints or whatever. Only my opinion of course from what I have viewed..........................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I don't think he had a heart attack, I suspect he leaned forward to try and hold the stick. Imagine winding the trim all the way forward and back at top speed, the stick forces would have been immense. Judging by the way the plane was flying, I think someone was fighting those controls all the way down. Well at least that's how I will remember Jimmy Leeward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Certainly does appear as if there was some incapacitation pre impact (from the photos), although a few witnesses have said that it appeared as if the plane were still pulling fairly significant positive G right up until the end - possibly in an attempt to avoid a direct hit on the spectator area. Re the measures that could be taken to minimise risk, I'm not sure that an analysis of likely trajectory would be of much use where aircraft are involved - perhaps if the thing suffered catastrophic structural failure on a turn, but here where it deviated significantly from its previous path, it would be pure guesswork. More generally on the risk issue; I earn a crust in the field, but having grown up and begun my working life under a more robust approach to incurring personal risk, ask myself whether the pendulum hasn't swung too far in favour of protecting the species? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongie Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Does the tailwheel in the p51 retract with the mains? In the photo purported to be just before impact the tailwheel is out... Could mean he had dumped the gear in attempt to wash speed? I'm sure someone can prob explain better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 That double snap roll after the climb out was quiet intense, once I saw him inverted and heading towards the crowd it was scary, he managed another 100 odd degrees of roll before hitting the ground. Had the debris gone into the crowd you would have had a lot more casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Whether you want the romance of the past, or think the pedulum has swung too far, we don't pull the pendulum, and those days are in the past. I loved to get up close and personal in moptor racing with wide open exhausts, feeling the throb of the engine in your guts, but sadly no more. Major I understand what you are saying, but these guys are racing circuits and there will be a footprint pattern and potential fallout area. Whether that's half a mile away is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 It's the first audience fatality in the history of the event. Everyone I spoke that was there would definitely go to the racing today if it was on. Its a great event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Hongie, yes I noticed that also, and as far as I'm aware it should retract with the mains. I guess it's possible he may have activated the gear-down sequence.It's also possible they may have had a drama with it and just decided to race that way. They have to make the heats otherwise they disqualify...........................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I thought they don't retract. If the tab was part detached it would be enough to cause the situation that occurred. You wouldn't need anything else wrong. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pookemon Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I thought they don't retract. If the tab was part detached it would be enough to cause the situation that occurred. You wouldn't need anything else wrong. Nev Just googled P-51 mustang and had a look at the piccies. Seems they do retract. I did notice that the tailwheel was down too and thought it was odd. I would think that if you told your gear to retract, and one of them didn't, you'd land straight way rather than fly at 400mph with it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 It (TW) would be unlikely to present a hazard, just more drag. A normal main gear down would have a speed limitation. There is a max speed for gear extension and for flying with it down. They are often different, The extension speed being the lower of the two in that case. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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